AWKWARD ZOMBIE

No, it is nothing like using metric instead of imperial. Metric and imperial still measure the same properties, while sex and gender are separate concepts. Gender is how a person identifies and behaves (such as masculine and feminine) while sex is a person's biological and physical condition.

What you said was wrong because it invalidated trans* identities - it's a matter of "a woman saying she isn't a woman" vs "a female identifying as a man."

@Ycobb I know it's not just a problem in the US but since I live in the US I don't feel like I can speak for any other country.

Yeah, I feel the same way in most cases, but I figured it was worth noting in this case since what you said could easily lead to "but it should be done in other countries" from other people who don't realize what it's like in the rest of the world.

That's a bit wrong, without much doubt the Scandinavian countries are overall the most progressive. Out of the typically seen as "western" countries I'd say the US and the UK are the most conservative (which is perhaps more debatable).

Gee, he didn't say most progressive, he said more progressive.

That's why I said a bit wrong, I didn't know exactly what he meant by most well-known and three of the examples he used I know still have a ways to go.

I know what they mean, what I'm saying is it's a pointless thing to be butthurt about.

EDIT: Either way, what exactly is the general stance of everyone on the issue? I really wouldn't mind a FEMALE using the facilities at the same time, and I'm guessing there are numerous people out there who wouldn't mind either. It sounds like the general issue is our perception of how society would treat it.

I understand the reason would generally be to accommodate for trans individuals, and promote acceptance, but at the same time I can't help but agree that that acceptance needs to be there already. We need to spread the message of acceptance more than just accommodation. The plan would just make it easier for a trans individual to out themselves in society, where the individuals comfort level would depend on how readily they think society would accept it.

We could go the route equal rights did where we just shotgun it into the population like we did for african americans, and then fend off the public outcry, but then it's a question of what we really want. If we want the acceptance in society, there are more effective, efficient ways. If we want the accommodation, then yes this is the better way, though it'd be delusional to think there wouldn't be an outcry of some fashion from those opposed to it.

Yeah, I knew the UK and the US were the bottom of the top. I was recently surprised to learn that England hadn't legalized gay marriage at all yet? At least the US is part of the way there.
As for best known, I just meant the quote-unquote big ones. I'd have included Australia and Italy had I gone into more depth, for example.

Didn't know that about Scandinavian countries, though.
(Actually, to be honest, I'm not totally sure what the Scandinavian countries are, except for Denmark? And before I visited Denmark I had just assumed Scandinavia was its own country.)


Reyo, if you A) use butthurt in serious discussion and B) think technical terms don't matter when their precise use is one of the most important sides of the issue, I don't think you should be discussing the issue. Also, your flawed analogy makes it pretty suspect to say you know what they mean.

I'm just going to continue with the discussion with the topic on hand given my editted comment above and ignore this sentiment, because I've been scolded in this very thread for doing the very thing you just did (telling people they should or shouldn't continue with the discussion).

There, that's much better.

The only comment I see to add is that yes, many people do just want the accommodation. It's symbolic for them. They want acceptance too, of course, but that will be a long time coming so accommodation is preferable to nothing in the short term.

It's also important to consider that accommodation might force acceptance. It's wholly probable that if racial equality hadn't been forced in America, we would be far behind where we are now.

(I don't agree with these priorities, I'd personally prefer to wait it out, but that doesn't matter because I'm not a member of the important party here.)

You also have to realize that being trans is a bit more complicated than being black. You can hide your trans nature, while it's a bit difficult to find yourself in the position to have to "come out of the closet" as a black person. Like was discussed before there'd still be the issue of people not going along with it and just going in the restroom that doesn't apply to them anyway out of fear of negative action. Then you have the ones who might be too proud to walk into the bathroom of their choosing, making it a sort of "gay pride parade" level spectacle.

Simply put, I'm not entirely confident that instilling it will have the same level of effect as people think it will. Like even when they got rid of segregation for African americans, we still have a few pockets of people who fight it.

Personally, the idea of just having individual, unisex bathrooms, would still be the most ideal for avoiding any sort of backlash, though there is the problem of efficiency (one at a time vs 2-3 at a time.) And then having a separate bathroom for trans individuals might feel a little too much like segregation.

The suggestions to hide that you're trans* is incredibly offensive to many. It's akin to "I don't mind gay people, as long as they don't act like it;" though I know again that you didn't mean it this way. People shouldn't have to hide their identity for the sake of safety. Of course, it's a bit idealistic to pretend that resulting abuse can't be avoided by staying quiet, but we definitely shouldn't try to create situations in which it's encouraged. (I'm not trying to derail the conversation by focusing on language; rather, I'm urging caution. The literal meaning of some of the things you're saying would definitely offend a lot of people. That's why it's important to use the language very carefully in this subject.)

If people want to treat it as a pride-parade sort of moment, why shouldn't they? Sure, I'll agree that that would be kind of obnoxious to outsiders, but that isn't an important factor. What matters is that people have the liberties they should have.

It also doesn't matter if there are pockets of resistance - we wouldn't decide to get rid of murder laws because they don't stop all murders, would we? That discrimination would still pervade isn't a very strong argument against openness, because it's still a step forward.

Keep in mind, I don't support basing bathrooms on gender, for the reasons I've stated. I'm just trying to make sure both sides understand the issue properly.

I also didn't say they should, I said they would anyway, even if there was a law allowing them to use the restroom that fits their gender.

Like how a homosexual male will try to act straight so that no one figures out he's gay, until he officially comes out of the closet.

I'll get to the other bits later, but werk.

Ah I don't really have anything to contribute to the current topic, but I did kind of want to go on a little side-path to it. Namely, I wanted to ask...and I apologize profusely if this is insensitive, but... How do trans* usually decide they've been born the wrong sex?

Specifically I'm wondering about FtM trans*, since this is such a male-oriented society, and girls are more accepted as being manly, how do you differentiate from just being a 'tomboy' to being a 'boy'?
And how do you figure out if your comfort in the male-spectrum is coming from yourself, or from the way you were raised?
Like, if you're raised like a boy for most of your life due to having three brothers and being closer to your Dad, and your Mum doesn't even like girly things so she doesn't really try to persuade you to dress up and would much rather you wear modest clothes, but the only modest clothes available are in the boy's section of the clothing store... How do you decide if your gender choice is your own or a result of your childhood?

Not to say that I was raised with the intention of being raised as a boy. It was just the way things ended up being. I do remember doing girly things, of course. I played with dolls and I liked tea sets and I would pretend I was a princess... But I felt embarrassed when I tried to play with makeup or do my nails, like I was drawing attention to myself, and I felt uncomfortable if I wore girly things unless they were ankle-length skirts/dresses. But I also didn't like bright colours or drawing attention to myself in general, so is it just part of my personality? I've always been shy, after all.

But then, about a year and a half ago (this is going on a little bit of a tangent), I was in a play and had the role of a tomboy who wanted to join a male-only gang. At the end of the one of the performances, after the last death scene, one of the girls took my hand and lead me off-stage. And for a brief second I had this really strong urge that I was male. But I couldn't figure out if that was me talking or my character. But it was so intense that I was in a daze for the rest of the evening.
I haven't experienced that feeling in a while, but almost every day or so for the past...two months?, I'll sit by myself and close my eyes and picture myself as a guy...but when I get up and go look in the mirror, I see my female body and have a lot of trouble recreating the image of a male me.

So I guess I'm wondering...is this just a phase? I'm 19 now, right in the 'Finding myself' age, so it could be... It's not like I want it to be a phase, though, I've always wished to be a boy (boys don't menstruate, they don't have to deal with tiddies, they get all the awesome roles in plays, ect), but...those reasons make me feel like I'm trivializing it. That I'm treating it like that phrase 'It's always greener on the other side'.
Which is also why I'm a little nervous about testing it out. Like if I were to get my hair cut and started binding my chest and changed my name...but then I decide it's not for me, would other transmen get mad at me for wearing it like a piece of jewelry? Would I be offending people because I can't make up my mind about who I am? I guess that's kind of a stupid thing to worry about... But this whole issue is so delicate, I just...don't know...

I'm not speaking as any sort of expert, as I am a thoroughly cissexual male, but in general it's almost fully a matter of how you feel about yourself. I know some trans* people who are so because they feel almost violently repulsed by the details of their birth body (this is dysphoria) and I know some who simply feel that they are better represented by the opposite gender. Some females might identify as boys because of this, while others may be content to be tomboys. It's a personal decision/realization, and I can't understand or explain it since I've never been through it.

Delving briefly into a personal note, I think it's fairly common to wonder what it would be like to be a member of the opposite sex. At the very least, I've done it as well. However, I've never felt it strongly enough to feel that I should be or actually am a woman. That's the biggest dividing line, according to most people I've heard from - do you feel you were meant to be a boy, or are you just curious about it?

To keep this topic more grounded in this thread's focus on objective discourse, to answer your questions about offending people:
Ultimately, it's your body and your life. Everybody assumes their identity for their own reasons, so if you feel strongly enough to identify as a transman then that should be good enough for anybody. ((Some very, very misguided individuals might be sensitive enough to send you death threats for daring to have ever identified as cis, or for not being trans* 'enough,' or for anything else in your post, but outside of tumblr.com these people are nigh universally scoffed at.))
It's entirely possible you might just be undergoing a phase, as well. All of the teen years tend to be pretty hormonal for most people, so a lot of people tend to experience confusion about things like this.

The only concrete advice I have to give is to make sure you're certain before committing to being transgender. It's not a fun situation to be in; there's a lot of difficulties that come with identifying as anything but cissexual, so you should make sure you feel strongly about it before taking any major steps. I don't want to clog this thread up too much with words that aren't for debating, but if you'd like to talk about anything more than I and likely many other members would be perfectly willing to talk at greater length privately or in another thread.