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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "TIGER"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:25 pm 
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First played, SF2 Turbo I think.
First owned, SC2, been rocking Yoshimitsu since.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:20 pm 
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A lengthy, but great read about the deep differences between the Fighting Game Community and the other #ESPORTS communities.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:37 pm 
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Since toady's work Is Kappa, I will bring up that I named my Cow Mangler in TF2 The Kappa Blaster.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:06 pm 
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I vote we get the Kappa, DansGame, and KevinTurtle emotes in this forum. Kappa

And Heroes and Heralds looks interesting, but everyone is going to be using the Super Armor and meter cards. I mean, what's the point of using ANY other ability if you can't be knocked out of an attack and have infinite meter? DansGame

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Goddammit LeShad, I didn't realize how long that article was and I have classes in the morning. It was an interesting read though, and I learned a lot about the FGC.

I want to say here what some of the biggest appeals to me are in the SCII community, just for comparison. The personalities. Huk isn't a popular player just because he's good (which he is) but because he's fucking awesome. He knows how to appeal to the fans. On the other hand, you have guys like Idra, who are much more controversial (Idra having a history of being bad mannered, this may sound strange to people unfamiliar with the scene, but SCII has an oddly strong sense of etiquette). This can be likened to the face/heel thing in professional wrestling, which I find makes the scene more interesting and engaging. Furthermore, SCII has some downright amazing casters. It's unbelievable how good these people are at what they do. There are a variety of casters too, guys that it keep it low access and enthusiastic (like Husky) and guys who go very into detail and analysis (like Day9), and everything in between. This allows newcomers to ease into the scene and sort of naturally progress into the more "hardcore" side.

I think the writer of the article might be too optimistic, for a number of reasons. Keep in mind that I'm entirely unfamiliar with the scene though.

- the writer's emphasis on the arcade-driven origin of the FGC. The arcade scene is dying, this means there will be either less new players coming in or players from a different background
- the community's rejection of corporate influence. This is a capitalistic world. Without the organization and capital of a corporate-like structure, the scene can never grow truly big
- the apparently relatively hostile attitude toward newcomers. People have to earn "respect" first?
- the writer's optimism seems mostly based on the fact that the FGC has managed to endure harsh times and is steadily growing again. Basing yourself on history to predict the future is a pretty weak argument on itself.

On the previously listed reasons I'd conclude that with the FGC as it is, influx of newcomers into the scene is greatly hampered. The current revival of the scene is mostly due to recent releases, and all it would take is a new period of mediocre or little releases to reduce the FGC again. To counteract that, the FGC has to build more momentum faster to push through the next down period, or risk falling back into obscurity. To do so, the scene needs to be more attractive to newcomers somehow.

To sum up, I fear that the FGC either has to be more open to newcomers and thus lose some of it's roots, or risk dying back down. Although I'm definitely not pessimistic or bold enough to claim that the FGC can never succeed with the way it's proceding now.


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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:54 pm 
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The FGC is always willing to accept a new guy. Just last night Knives went 5-2 against Mike Ross and it was voted best match of the night.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:59 pm 
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I don't know who that is, but I mostly meant towards other amateurs, not professionals.


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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:00 pm 
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As far as I can tell, he is an amateur. I've never heard of him before, and I think that was his first tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:03 pm 
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I'm bad with words.

I mean people paying to watch tournaments, who only casually play the game sometimes or not at all. That group is your main source of income.

But again, I know nothing of the FGC, so maybe they are more welcoming than that article made it appear to me.


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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:17 pm 
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They are.

Man, if eSports and FGC ever combined, I really hope that FGC controls the commentary. I doubt it, but a fighting stream with boring "professional" ESPN commentary would suck booty compared to some Yipes or Team Rush Hour glory.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Ok that's good, but I also think it'd help in general if there were some kind of noob-friendly channel where a caster talks more in depth about a game. That way you can get people who don't play or don't play on a competitive level (like playing MvC with friends but not learning how to do combos and stuff) can be eased in to observing games so they actually know what they're looking at. I got in to SCII before I ever played the game, and I tried the same with fighting games, but I had no idea where to start and watching normal games left me absolutely clueless.

I don't know if a format like that could actually work for a fighting game though.


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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Syobon wrote:
I think the writer of the article might be too optimistic, for a number of reasons. Keep in mind that I'm entirely unfamiliar with the scene though.

- the writer's emphasis on the arcade-driven origin of the FGC. The arcade scene is dying, this means there will be either less new players coming in or players from a different background
This point is mostly something of the past actually. It was mentioned because this is how the community started, but it has evolved a lot since then.
Arcades, even though they are dying in the US, are still an important part of the FGC if only for what they represent. They are a meeting spot, a cultural melting-pot, and they force you to level up your game if you don't want to keep losing cheddar. There are still lots of players going to the arcade almost daily to spar with other players. It's pretty much agreed on that this is the better way to get better at the game.
However, the scene became different for a very simple reason: console ports. You can now play the game at home and you don't have to spend a quarter every time you want to. Thanks to that, "sessions" are organized at players' houses/ venues for either casual play, training sessions, local tourneys... It's the new alternative for people that want to meet up and play. It's also a place that is far less rough than the arcade for newcomers, because they don't always have to worry about putting cheddar on the line, so learning the basics is easier there. The downsides are that you don't support your local arcade (if you have one of course) and that, well, since there is not always cheddar on the line, some players tend to not play as well as they would if there was. They're not as "hungry" to win and level up as they could be. But that depends on the individuals.

Syobon wrote:
- the apparently relatively hostile attitude toward newcomers. People have to earn "respect" first?
I can see how it's easy to misunderstand that point. Once again, disrespect for newer players is mostly a thing of the past because about everyone in the community realises now that we need newcomers for the community to keep striving.
Nowadays, the concept of respect is more directly tied to commenting on skills than it is on ignoring newcomers. The community is actually very welcoming to newcomers and players (may they be just local players or pro legends like Justin Wong) are more than willing to give you a few tips - if you're serious about the game. And they won't sweeten their words - if they think you suck, they'll tell you, but that's because they want you to get better, and for that you have to "be hungry": that's why they don't feed you compliments easily. It can be discouraging, but to be a good player, you also have to have a strong mind.
Quite simply, being respected simply means that you are skilled at the game and that people recognize that. As Xabyrn said, the community is gonna welcome any challenger. Tourneys are open to everyone, most casual sessions at people's houses are open to everyone, arcades are open to everyone.

As for the "people paying to watch tournaments, who only casually play the game sometimes or not at all", there is bodaciously no judging of these guys at all. These guys are very welcome, they generate hype and are also part of why the community is so amazing - all the side bets, the memes, the hilarious trashtalk. Really, the whole "FGC isn't welcoming" part of the article is more about how it was in arcades back in the 90's (because you had to be serious about the games) and during the dark age (because the communities for each games were old and for newcomers to reach a good level compared to the old school players took a really long time). Since SF4, it has been a new start in a completely different mindset: even though some people worry about the quality of the games, all of them are glad that we got exposure, we got new blood, we got hype.

Also Knives isn't really an amateur but he's never been known by the public because he was pretty "average" until now/ he didn't place well in big tourneys.

Syobon wrote:
- the community's rejection of corporate influence. This is a capitalistic world. Without the organization and capital of a corporate-like structure, the scene can never grow truly big
I agree, but he also mentions that the community can create something like that on its own. I think the FGC is full of amazing people, and I think it's possible. However, I also think that working with the existing #ESPORTS scene and organizations would be a great thing - we're all gamers.

Syobon wrote:
- the writer's optimism seems mostly based on the fact that the FGC has managed to endure harsh times and is steadily growing again. Basing yourself on history to predict the future is a pretty weak argument on itself.
Honestly, he's optimistic about it because of what I said above - the FGC is full of amazing people, and all the newcomers are making it even better. However, I also think the FGC is also "weak" right now because it's not something that is as established as other #ESPORTS in terms of popularity with the non-fighting gamers AND the non-gamers. Yes, the FGC will survive no matter what but it's possible that a flood of bad fighting games and/ or bad handling of the scene could make it go through another dark age where the community would be stagnant.

The FGC does have player with great personalities, but I'll agree that compared to SC2, it lacks "casters". The only big name I can think of is Ken Bogard, and his commentary was in French, meaning that even though folks that don't speak French could recognize his hype, his great knowledge and insight is lost on them. There aren't really channels based on match commentary. Cross Counter did some (but they honestly were just average at it) and Ryan Hunter is trying to do something like that too, but it's not that popular despite being very entertaining and useful. The FGC does have great live commentary but lacks people casting matches and explaining stuff after the tourney is over.

Syobon wrote:
Ok that's good, but I also think it'd help in general if there were some kind of noob-friendly channel where a caster talks more in depth about a game. That way you can get people who don't play or don't play on a competitive level (like playing MvC with friends but not learning how to do combos and stuff) can be eased in to observing games so they actually know what they're looking at. I got in to SCII before I ever played the game, and I tried the same with fighting games, but I had no idea where to start and watching normal games left me absolutely clueless.
Yeah, that's pretty much what is lacking: there is no really good, low-level introduction to fighting games on a large scale. There is pretty much only one way to get introduced to fighting games at a low level, and that in person with members of the community. The SRK forums could be a good place but most of it is actually mid-level discussion. Ken Bogard, the French caster guy, actually did a bunch of fun little videos that weren't bad at talking about fighting games at a low level but it was relatively short-lived.

Syobon wrote:
I don't know if a format like that could actually work for a fighting game though.
Judging by Ken Bogard's stuff, it totally can! He usually comments one whole match from start to end and then comes back later on on important points he feels needs explaining or needs to be highlighted as more fundamentally important that what one would think. There is simply nobody that is doing that in the English-speaking community, of if they do, they lack the knowledge, the insight and/ or the skills to do so, and lack popularity also. I mean, Maximillian does it but it's only about his matches and it's mostly mid-to-high level gameplay.

It's definitely something I feel is lacking, along with well made, easily accessible low-level initiations that would appeal to a lot of folks (as in, YouTube videos with good pacing, editing, explanations, instead of the usual lengthy SRK forum posts full of complicated stuff). I heard Maximillian may do something about the later part though, so I'm hoping it's gonna be good.

The only things I can think of are these two pages: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Strategy_Guide http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Glossary These were pretty much how I got started with learning to appreciate fighting games on another level, back then, but they really aren't friendly to the newbie. EDIT: haha the Strategy Guide page is fairly outdated.

Xabyrn wrote:
Man, if eSports and FGC ever combined, I really hope that FGC controls the commentary. I doubt it, but a fighting stream with boring "professional" ESPN commentary would suck booty compared to some Yipes or Team Rush Hour glory.
I want Team Rush Hour to commentate my life

I'm sorry for the length of this post.

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Thanks for that post Le Great Handsome Oppressor, it clarified a lot. Could you link me to some of Ken Bogard's stuff if you want? I doubt I'll be able to understand him, but I'm willing to give it a shot.


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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Here is his YouTube channel.
Also here are his secondary accounts with different videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/NasuGrav http://www.youtube.com/user/Longuetron
As you can see he also uploaded video of casual matches (including stuff like the Sailor Moon fighting game) and he's also a big fan of Puyo Puyo 2 and comments competitive tournaments of it too.
His latest videos don't have commentary because he now uses eLive, a platform that lets you comment over YouTube video lives and then saves the archives. It saves him a lot of time since he doesn't have to edit videos any more.
I'd advise browing his videos by playlists: http://www.youtube.com/user/Puyo432343#g/p
Caution: Loadsa French hype

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 Post subject: Re: FIGHTING GAMES General - Today's word is "KAPPA"
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Your the mod, Great Handsome Oppressor you got nothing to be sorry about. I really like the Ultradavid's article, it explained a lot of stuff I did not know about Starcraft 2 ans eSports.


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