AWKWARD ZOMBIE

The correct thing to do right now is kill yourself.

1 and 2 also have stories, I don't know what makes you think they didn't. There's few cutscenes? Of course they have stories, pretty good ones that explore the idea of free will in videogames.

The backstory is what makes them special as games, Rapture is a unique idea full of interesting people utilizing the setting to it's fullest. Columbia is a shallow caricature of the idea of "A city based on an ideal".

Rapture on paper sounds like utopia, the game underlines through the story and world building why it wasn't. Columbia is FLYING 1920S RACISM HAHAHA. Do we need a multimillion dolla game to explore why racism is bad?

"Characters who really actually work as characters"? You mean Elizabeth the girl who has been shut in all her life but runs off to dance with strangers the moment she's out? There's wanting to be free and then there's "This girl has never met a human" Other than Comstock or whoever.

The fact that you think Infinite has better characters than 1/2 is ridiculous. You think Comstock is more interesting than Ryan? His death was absolutely forgettable and he didn't say one memorable thing, Ryan said a whole bunch of things.

Fink was shit, absolutely terrible compared to Cohen who is an obvious comparison. So much so that Fink feels like a shadow of him, testing you on stage and such. Then you never even get to meet Fink because CHILD KILLA FITZROY got there first. Also did you know Fink's brother made all the music you hear? That totally got sidelined huh.

Slate was okay, and early in the game, which solidifies my belief that the early stages were made when the game was going to be something different and better. Notice how there's only one shop where stealing is an option? There's even a pop up saying that stealing will attract attention to you, so be careful! Stealing never comes up again.

I don't really have anything to say about Daisy besides the ridiculous 180 she did just to fit the "Everyone is just as bad" theme of the story. She's just boring.

The twins are great though.

But that's it, all Infinite has to stand up to characters like Ryan, Atlus, Tenenbaum, Cohen, Suchong, Lamb, Eleanor, Sinclair (;_;7), Fontaine, Gilbert Alexander, Mark Meltzer.

Not to mention everything in Columbia has 0 thought put into it. Why do Handymen exist? Yeah they keep people alive but that's it? How did they come into being? Oh, Fink made them huh? Tears again? What do they have to do with the plot? Oh right, nothing. Big Daddies are so tied into the games and Rapture but Handymen are just "Uh, well it's not Bioshock without a big guy" the same way vigors are "It's not Bioshock without not-magic in the offhand"

THE GAMEPLAY IS BETTER HE SAYS

NO AMMO TYPES IS BETTER
AWFUL MELEE IS BETTER
5 GEAR SLOTS INSTEAD OF UP TO 18 TONICS IS BETTER
2 GUN LMAO 2 GUN
NO RESEARCH IS BETTER
NO PLANNING IS BETTER
NO HACKING IS BETTER
NO WRENCH IS BETTER

The guns are also more standard, no whacky shit like harpoons and mines. Tears are a joke. Enemies are bullet sponges that tank like 3+ headshots from a sniper rifle. (Bioshock had this but at least you could research to even it out)

In 1+2 melee only is an option, there's a tonic that encourages it and it feels good. Floating like a butterfly etc with the wrench, smack shit around with the drill. The wheely thing is like the drill if the drill did no damage, it's only good if you abuse charge and that gear that makes you invincible when you jump off rails.

Rails are okay but a missed opportunity for making an open world.

So there

"How is Infinite inferior at all?"

There you fucking go.

That is the longest and most coherent post I think you have ever made.



Also also true.

Jesus christ, princess brothel.

...

I don't really know what to think now, I still think Infinite is the more fun of the two, but I blame me being spoiled off of more action-oriented FPS' like Call of Duty 4 as a young teen...

But I have a few gripes.

You probably know by now that in a Voxophone recording that Fink built Songbird after he saw Big Daddies in Rapture, OK, so if he was able to build Songbird, why not Handymen? Handymen obviously play a role as "Wardens", as you saw in the beginning of the Fink factories segment of the game, they were made to keep things in line in case of times of crisis. But this is not really 100% confirmed, but that's still what I believe.

Second, unless you're talking about the Hard-Hitters, enemies are not bullet sponges, they don't take too long to kill, but aren't piss easy if you know what you're doing, enemies like the Flak cannons and Firemen can survive a sniper shot because they have armor on, and most enemies go down with one sniper round, and even if they don't, they sure as hell will go down with a pistol round afterwards.

And on the strategy part, I have to say that I tend to use a lot of the vigors and different weapons accordingly, last playthrough, I held onto a Sniper rifle the whole time, the second time around, I held onto a Hand cannon, that's the beauty of how the gameplay and story mix up, each and every playthrough are different in some way, and show off different weapon choices Booker decided, while another dimensions Booker might have gone with a dfiferent weapon, strategy is something necessary on hard difficulties, and there are different things you can try and do to get rid of enemies fast in large fire fights. For example...

During the sniper part of the downtown area, you can have Elizabeth tear open some Sniper Rifles or some freight hooks to come up close and finish the job, sure, the sniper rifle may be the obvious choice, but some people are bound to try and take the freight hooks just for a new experience.

And about the whole "steal the Heater" thing, this does occur two more times from my play through knowledge, once at the start of Finks factories, where taking some gear can result in a Mosquito, Motorized Patriot, and a ton of enemies trying to kick your booty. The second one is in Shanty Town where if you take some cheddar from the folks who are trying to destroy they will go and attack you, but I won't really keep this as an example as it's piss easy to just avoid that and get the cheddar.

Really, that's all I gotta say...I respect your opinion, still, that was a really daisies fine post.

I just realized that this discussion bodaciously turned into something on the same level as political debates.

Oh yeah I forgot that bit with the cheddar.

You can also steal an upgrade there that's behind a guy giving out food.

The bit just after starting the revolution is one of my favourite parts, it has such a nice atmosphere with all the confetti and some guy singing an irish song.

But about changing playthroughs, I don't thinking limiting the players choice of weapons is the way to do it. In 1+2 you have one use weapon upgrade stations, there's a set number and they're fairly scarce, not enough to use on all your weapons. This means the player has to specialize but isn't restricted the the weapons they choose.

Actually, I think you can get that in the "other Columbia" after finding Chen Lins tools and switching worlds, they won't be there and you can get it with little problem, it depends if you want to get it early and look like a bad guy or hold off and get it later scott free.

Edit-Can I also add that I would have loved to have worked with a Fireman during the segment with the guy trying to burn through the doors, that would have been goddamn awesome to see him burst the door open for you.

holy christ lets break this down



1 had the most bare-bones, minimalistic story of ever. There's only one time where it becomes any sort of deep in terms of plot, and that's the whole Ryan scene. And then the story turns to shit and the game feels like it's going on a bit too long.

2 had more of a plot but I dunno if I'd say it was more fleshed out at all? It doesn't really feel like it, but standing back and looking at it, it probably does. I enjoyed 2 more because it was more focused on what was happening now, instead of what did happen in little bits you have to search out for.

Note, when I mean stories in this case, I mean what's actually happening in the game while you play. Backstory in 1 was undeniably larger than Infinite, but that doesn't make Infinite at all worse and I'll get to why.



Yes! Rapture, full of people. That is exactly what it is.
wait no hold on they purposefully made it not that

Rapture, on paper, and in practice, sounds fucking horrible and that is the point. It was not a thing that could function. The backstory goes into why exactly, but there's no point during the game where you should be going "no yeah this makes sense a little" because that's the exact opposite of what they're trying to say.

and i could call rapture SUNKEN 1980S CAPITALISM HAHAHA easily, because guess what

They're both caricatures. They're both made as extreme, unlikely ideas, that you're not supposed to think of fondly. Rapture is a pit. Columbia is a slightly cleaner pit until you come along, and then bam, pit.

If you want to say Columbia was only to say "RACISM IS BAD", then I hope you won't mind me saying Rapture was only to say "CAPITALISM IS BAD"

Even though both statements would be missing the point horribly, because Columbia was to show why religious extremism would never work, while Rapture is to show why economic extremism would never work. Then that's just the tip of the iceberg.



...

y-yes

that's

She hadn't ever met another human
That was the point
Why is a vital part of her character and growth in the game a bad thing



Ryan did, indeed, say a whole lot of things. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything interesting outside of the TWEEST. Comstock wasn't much better, but at least I felt like he was a villain actively working against me, and his death was basically seared into my mind because of the implications of it which actually foreshadow really well.




I actually figured Fink was more of a reference to Sinclair, with some Gil Alexander post insanity mixed in. I didn't really get too much Cohen vibes. I don't actually remember a whole lot of Cohen, hilariously, which shows how much of an impact he had on me. I remember Fink, though.

Also the fact that Fink's brother made the music isn't sidelined at all. You can get a couple of voxophones that say so, and there's a few advertisements that say so also.



Stealing shit is actually in quite a bit of the early game, but after the early game, everyone goes nuts and shops are abandoned, so stealing stops being such a big thing.

Slate was actually interesting, and I do wish they'd done more with him, but I wish they did more with most games I like.



There's a lot going for Fitzroy's heel turn. When it happens it makes sense, and it works with her character as we know it. She doesn't do a 180. She has a bit of a turn because of you fucking with time, but it's nothing out of character.



The twins are by far the best of ever.



Ryan: Forgettable if not for the one scene.
Atlus: Forgettable if not for, once again, the one scene, and the "sploicers" line
Tenenbaum: shows up twice in the first game, once in the second, has some intersting backstory but her involvement in the games is minimal
Cohen: shows up twice I think maybe, I remember killing him for an upgrade station
Suchong: who
Fontaine: isn't he atlas
Lamb: Ryan but more actively antagonistic
Eleanor: Actually really good, I liked her as a character and she was kind of a neat idea.
Sinclair: (;_;7)
Gil Alexander: Also more actively antagonistic, and was the only morally grey choice in the game, so + points for that
Mark Meltzer: (;_;7)

so that's a lot of characters i don't really care about, with a few who were pretty good
...

in fact all the good ones are from 2

Infinite, however, while having a smaller cast, has none of that cast be actually forgettable. Elizabeth and Booker are very well built and are enjoyable, Booker getting points especially because it's not often you have a FPS protagonist who is a character beyond just insert-player-power-fantasy-here. Comstock is someone you actually can grow to hate. Fitzroy and Fink are the worst ones, and even they provide a lot more than the worst of the first game.



spoiler: Fink sees the Big Daddies through a tear, which is why he makes Songbird for Elizabeth. He then makes the Handymen to work for him, and to sell as forced labor. If you ever notice, they're constantly shouting at you to get away, because they have no control over themselves anymore. They also don't show up as often as Big Daddies so the comparative lack of backstory makes more sense. Big Daddies were around more, and they were focused around a thing necessary to continue. Handymen are just mini-bosses in comparison.

also if you'd played the game at all you'd know exactly how important tears are
unless you stuck your fingers in your ears every time they came up



i'm sorry that unlike the first game, i enjoyed fights
also wrench
lol drill is where it's at

though once you get the charge vigor upgraded to make explosions, plus fire melee, buzzsaw ice cream scooper gets right up to drill tier

also yes, god yes, no hacking is so much better



No "whacky" shit?

Ignoring the fact that you think an underwater city having a harpoon gun is "whacky", and that in both games every weapon is designed to look and work with it's surroundings specifically so they don't feel out of place...

Infinite has a mortar cannon. And, you know, the gun that shoots controlled explosions? Or how about the Heater, the blunderbuss-shotgun that lights people on fire. If none of those suit your fancy, how about the crank-powered minigun.

And hopefully you were upgrading your guns, you know, so enemies die faster. Not like I can believe at all that it ever took more than one headshot from a sniper rifle to kill a regular mook. I bodaciously cannot believe that. I'm not saying you're lying, but I can't believe that at all.



In 1 there's no reason to ever bother to do melee-only because the melee sucks.
In 2, melee only seems to be how they want you to play the game it's so good, you can't compare anything to it. The drill wins.
In Infinite, you'll start out ignoring it, but by the end it was my main form of attack because it was doing fire damage, and whenever the Charge vigor connected, it created small explosions in a radius around me.

which you know, i didn't see the wrench making explosions



...

well yeah okay i can't actually argue that the rails would have been a lot better with an open world
but okay? really? just okay? those things were fucking awesome and disgustingly fun.

Infinite is better because it did what 1 didn't do, and what 2 tried very hard to do. It made me give a shit.
I didn't give a shit about Jack, or Ryan, or Fontaine. The splicers were just cannon fodder after a while. I kinda thought Rapture was neat, but even then I had no connection to it. It was just a story being told. 2 made me feel like I was actually doing something that had an effect on the world, that people were trying to stop me and help me actively, and not just through a radio because they didn't have models.

Infinite made me care. I cared about what happened to Booker and Elizabeth. I cared about taking down Comstock and getting out of Columbia. I cared about watching this world, with the random civilians it somehow fleshed out so well, crumble because of me. I gave a shit.

Bioshock 1 cannot, and could not, ever, make me give a shit because it's just a story. Everything's happened already, it doesn't feel like you're doing anything. I don't care, and there's nothing in there to make me care, because the story is basically a book.

Yes, Fitzroy does not make a 180.
Think about it. You met her once, at which point she offers you to do work for her or basically die. Everything else you hear of her is either indoctrinated people who think she is as bad as the devil or her followers. So of course you'd get the feeling she has to be a good guy, since the bad guys hate her. She doesn't do a 180, you just never actually heard an unbiased evaluation on what she wants to do until she wants you dead.

Her backstory also makes it rather clear that she's now inherently distrustful, after seeing Comstock kill his wife and then blame her.
Once her movement gets going, she personally starts getting into it so much because this is her revenge.
Not to mention, when she escaped from prison, her psychiatrist gave her his keys and all his cheddar because he was fascinated with her genius. She killed him. Fitzroy holds a grudge.

rapture is objectivism dingus

I don't know why you think a minimalistic story is bad, Bioshock 1 is all about ending up in this mysterious underwater city that's all decrepit and finding out what happened to it. You're introduced to concepts like adam, plasmids, the mysterious little sisters, you find out about the people that made them and why they did it and how. That's a selling point of the game, letting the player explore and piece things together themselves rather than have it explained to them in a cutscene or by their walking exposition waifu

2 was indeed more involved. I think because it was still Rapture so the "Woah Underwater city!!!" angle doesn't work anymore, so they need an a slightly more involving plot. But Infinite is the same as 1, it's a clean slate, they can do all the world building they want and don't because people eat up explosions and alternate realities.

Oh I totally forgot to mention alternate realities in my first post.
It's lazy writing and it's not new or interesting. Time travel and dimension hopping are not new to scifi and all it breeds is laziness.
Have an unanswered question? Tears did it.

When I said "Rapture is full of people" I wasn't being literal (Though it is full of sploicers). It's full of information about people
And Rapture doesn't sound bad on paper, it's not meant to. Well an underwater city is retarded but whatever.
A city unhindered by the restraints of society, the cutting edge of technology and culture. It should be great!!!! It only goes to shit because Ryan and Lamb are dickheads.

And like I said, Rapture is objectivism, Ryan flat out rejects capitalism in his intro speech.

I guess i wasn't clear about the Elizabeth dancing scene? She's been holed up her whole life, then her house explodes and they fall into a fake ocean and Booker almost drowns. She goes off and dances. Like I said, Elizabeth has never met a person, she should be introverted as all fuck and yet she's a social butterfly instantly. It's ridonkulus

Ryan works against you, he sends splicers and stuff and talks to you over the radio.

Fink's brother Albert was hella sidelined. The only genuine logical application of tears ("I watched this rly good scientist lol" is crap), listening to music through them, and they hardly explore the character. Maybe that was always their intention and it's not like he got cut, I dunno, I still think he could have been more.

Calling Ryan forgettable is just silly.
I listed Atlus and Fontaine separately because I feel that his personas evoke different responses from the player and I didn't want to be overtly spoilery.
I'll give you Suchong he sucks lol
But the thing about that list was they are all characters off the top of my head. I could have looked up more like Ryan's head of security for example, but I didn't because I forgot his name so he isn't worth listing.
I don't like the phrase "power fantasy" but how is Booker not one? He's cool and badass. If I'm playing him then I'm cool and badass! I liked Booker but come on.

I know all about Songbird and Handymen don't worry.
As a scifi thing I have no problem with "Big tough cyborg guy", it's fine as a videogame enemy. It's not fine for a Bioshock game and as a replacement for Big Daddies, though I guess the way they appear and you have to fight them is like Big Sisters.

soz I guess this bit was unclear
"Why do Handymen exist? Yeah they keep people alive but that's it? How did they come into being? Oh, Fink made them huh? Tears again? What do they have to do with the plot? Oh right, nothing"
I wasn't saying tears have nothing to do with the plot, I was saying Handymen have nothing to do with the plot.

Let's compare Handymen to brute splicers though. Did you know brutes come from using a mixture of Sports Boost and Armored Shell? There's an audio diary explaining it by the guy who invented it. Did you know they're all overly homophobic and insecure?
"Can't have a proper mate without accusations. It's all over their faces. Never have the guts to say it."
"Practically swimming in sodomy down here... Man can barely breathe."
"Doctor Lamb says to embrace the man in the mirror. How bloody queer is that?"
More character from a generic enemy than the whole concept of Handymen.

"i'm sorry that unlike the first game, i enjoyed fights"
Care to elaborate? Infinite's combat is just tried shooting and there's no sense of danger. Yeas 1+2 have vita chambers but you can turn them off and even if you don't losing a fight still costs you health packs, eve hypos and ammo. You can't turn the respawn off in Infinite since the game only has autosaves and all you lose is a little cheddar. By the end of Infinite I had thousands of dollars. cheddar was overabundant in 1+2 but at least you also had shit to spend it on, until endgame where they decide to just throw shit at you.


"also yes, god yes, no hacking is so much better"
gross, just gross
The hacking minigame in 1 was a bit weird and out of place (A pipe game while hacking a safe??) but in 2 they perfected it. Hacking during combat puts you at risk, which gives value to the autohack darts. However autohacking doesn't get you the blue bonuses, so it's optimal to specialize for hacking to you can do it quickly and safely and get the bonuses.

Things that are hackable:
Safes
Vending Machines
Health Stations (Hurts enemies once hacked, adds to the strategy)
Turrets
Security Bots (There's a tonic that lets you repair and name friendly bots, it's fucking genius)

Things Elizabeth can lockpick:
Safes
Doors

Locpicking has zero input from the player besides finding lockpicks which are overabundant later on and on top of that Elizabeth even points them out.

I guess whacky was the wrong word to use? I just meant non standard weaponry. I mean Bioshock 1 has a flamethrower that shoots electricity, 2 has rocket harpoons
"Controlled explosions"? you mean the grenade launcher? The minigun being crank powered doesn't make it not just a minigun.

Dude the melee doesn't suck in 1 are you kidding
Wrench specialist, wrench lurker, elemental hits, chameleon tonic, I'm sure there's other I don't remember. Not to mention it just feels good since you are so light yet the wrench is so heavy.
The wrench can set people on fire and zap them at the same time.

"I kinda thought Rapture was neat, but even then I had no connection to it. It was just a story being told"
You mean it was a world you were discovering~~

"and not just through a radio because they didn't have models."
Ahaha it's so true

"Bioshock 1 cannot, and could not, ever, make me give a shit because it's just a story. Everything's happened already, it doesn't feel like you're doing anything. I don't care, and there's nothing in there to make me care, because the story is basically a book."
They should put you in charge of the next one, it can be about anti-intellectualism on the moon.

But seriously though if you don't care about Rapture there's nothing I can say that will make you do so, it's about being in an interesting place finding out about interesting people. Columbia is interesting for half an hour, then you realise it's inhabitants are all cookie cutter 1920s white people. I didn't care that Columbia got messed up because of me because the people didn't feel like real people.

Fight fight fight fight

Can we just stop getting overly technical? Jesus christ, Galaxies post redefined the term "TLDR". Lets just say that the game is as good or a bit better than Bioshock 1 and not make this even more of a political debate.

discussion is the work of the devil!!!

That would make a very boring game. It's not really realistic but Irrational has never professed to be shooting for realistic.

Okay do I bought this yesterday and I Just got into the second big rift in the Columbia, where you "can't go back."

I honestly did not think I was going to like this game, and I was so wrong.

This game is amazing. The guns are great and I thought I wouldn't like that you could only carry two, but that's fine.
I thought I wouldn't like the shields but they work great.
The gear makes the game so much fun, yet not overpowered, even thought I get a frost shield for doing everything.
I have no idea who THOSE two are, the ones who appear when you have to make choices, but it seems like it's going to be awesome.
The vigors feel really good, but I motly use THE CROWWWWWSSSSS.
THE CROWS ARE GROWING OUT OF MY ARMS AND KILLING PEOPLE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

So yes this game is fun. Elizabeth feels so real and I want to help her so badly. It's also just fucking GORGEOUS. The skyrail is so cool...

Ugh.
Upgrades cost too much. That's the only thing.