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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Mr. Mander wrote:
Hella thirsty

I wanted to jump into the ocean with my mouth open and just never stop drinking

Of course that would have the exact opposite effect to what you wish for.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Dying of drowning/blood poison/eaten by sharks was easily preferable to being that thirsty

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:36 pm 
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I think D-Vid meant more that salt water wouldn't satisfy your thirst at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Also it will kill you eventually.

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The A in this case stands for Armageddon. As in, Armageddon a boner because this plane has a fucking HOWITZER sticking out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Not to mention diarrhoea and vomiting.


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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Diarrhea and vomiting eventually leading to death.

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The A in this case stands for Armageddon. As in, Armageddon a boner because this plane has a fucking HOWITZER sticking out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Syobon wrote:
>Doesn't know where to put something
>necroes own thread

oh well.

Ritalin. Does anyone use or has anyone used it and does it work? Is it worth getting diagnosed with ADHD?



I used to take ritalin, but it was for sluggishness.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Shitting yourself to death via dehydration.

Not a fun way to die.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Just ask the millions who have played Oregon Trail.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:01 pm 
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So I've had a question on my mind for a while, and my biology teacher is sort of flipping out about our state assessments (I'm in high school) so he asks for question and then ignores any hands that go up. Sort of frustrating, they make state tests easier than they should be anyway.

But I digress, my question is about Meiosis. Meiosis is where chromosomes cross over and swap segments to increase genetic diversity, yeah? (just checking to make sure I'm not remembering wrong) So is there some sort of process or something that keeps the sex chromosome from crossing over and swapping their important bits? Especially given that they're different sizes and it would really cause issues if a guy got a chromosome that was half-x-half-y and a y, since y doesn't have enough genetic information to grow a human (in the hypothetical scenario where an organism gets two y chromosomes, of course.)
I'm certainly not trying to point out some place where science is wrong or anything like that (as so many people seem to do), since it's pretty evident that the cross over doesn't happen; I'm just curious about this and my teacher sort of sucks.

Another question is how the number of chromosomes in different species can be different. For example, apes have 24 pairs while humans have 23. I've been informed that only plants can change the number of chromosomes between offspring, and even then they can only double it.
Is the variation in chromosome quantity simply due to really freakish mutations that made a lot of organisms suddenly lose a pair of chromosomes all at the same time (since an organism can't breed with an organism with a different number of chromosome)? This seems really improbable.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:11 pm 
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I'll start with the meiosis one and answer the chromosome one tomorrow, since I happen to have genetics class then.

I think the cross over does happen, since an Y-chromosome is just an X with a bit chopped off. So when they cross over, the usual just occurs with the parts that match, and where the Y-chromosome is different it doesn't have anything at all so cross over can't occur. In the case that I'm wrong and Y-chromosome does have genes that are incompatible with X and vice versa, there would be only a few and the chance of a cross over messing with those would be small. If it did happen you'd be screwed of course, but shit happens.


Edit: DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS.

Man, it's amazing how a shower makes you think clearly. I'm giving up on explaining myself though and just linking to the relevant wikipedia article. An interesting thing of note however, is that the sex chromosomes might still get messed up through chromosomal translocation, which can change around the SRY-gene, leading to odd stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:32 am 
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YCobb wrote:
Another question is how the number of chromosomes in different species can be different. For example, apes have 24 pairs while humans have 23. I've been informed that only plants can change the number of chromosomes between offspring, and even then they can only double it.
Is the variation in chromosome quantity simply due to really freakish mutations that made a lot of organisms suddenly lose a pair of chromosomes all at the same time (since an organism can't breed with an organism with a different number of chromosome)? This seems really improbable.

This is an interesting question which I haven't actually addressed in my own understanding of DNA.

The default answer in any question like this relating to genetics - is as usual - random and/or accidental mutation:

Wikipedia wrote:
Mutations can involve large sections of DNA becoming duplicated, usually through genetic recombination. These duplications are a major source of raw material for evolving new genes, with tens to hundreds of genes duplicated in animal genomes every million years. Most genes belong to larger families of genes of shared ancestry. Novel genes are produced by several methods, commonly through the duplication and mutation of an ancestral gene, or by recombining parts of different genes to form new combinations with new functions.

Here, domains act as modules, each with a particular and independent function, that can be mixed together to produce genes encoding new proteins with novel properties. For example, the human eye uses four genes to make structures that sense light: three for color vision and one for night vision; all four arose from a single ancestral gene. Another advantage of duplicating a gene (or even an entire genome) is that this increases redundancy; this allows one gene in the pair to acquire a new function while the other copy performs the original function. Other types of mutation occasionally create new genes from previously noncoding DNA.

Changes in chromosome number may involve even larger mutations, where segments of the DNA within chromosomes break and then rearrange. For example, two chromosomes in the Homo genus fused to produce human chromosome 2; this fusion did not occur in the lineage of the other apes, and they retain these separate chromosomes. In evolution, the most important role of such chromosomal rearrangements may be to accelerate the divergence of a population into new species by making populations less likely to interbreed, and thereby preserving genetic differences between these populations.

Source page.


I find it particularly interesting how - in the middle paragraph - it is explained that all the different genes relating to the eye have arisen from the replications and mutations of a single gene.

I find genetics incredibly fascinating; The parallels with computer programming are just... fascinating.

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:03 am 
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DoNotDelete wrote:
The default answer in any question like this relating to genetics - is as usual - random and/or accidental mutation:


The problem that arises with that standard answer in this case is that the probability is too low. If an extra chromosome pair were to appear as Ycobb said, then you're unable to breed with other things. It would only be possible if an other creature would have the same mutation at the the same time.

The mistake you make Ycobb, is progressing too fast. I think it would be more logical if an extra pair of chromosomes would start very small and accumulate or deteriorate over time. That way, the mutation might still be able to pass when breeding with a non-mutated specimen. For example, the current deterioration of the Y-chromosome. If using a linear extrapolation, that chromosome might completely lose function within the next 10 million years. Or not, see link. I could ask my professor about this on Friday if you still have doubts, this is just an explanation me and my classmates came up with.

DoNotDelete wrote:
I find genetics incredibly fascinating; The parallels with computer programming are just... fascinating.


I agree, I'm thinking about specialising in genetics actually ^^.


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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:13 am 
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Syobon wrote:
DoNotDelete wrote:
The default answer in any question like this relating to genetics - is as usual - random and/or accidental mutation:

The problem that arises with that standard answer in this case is that the probability is too low. If an extra chromosome pair were to appear as Ycobb said, then you're unable to breed with other things. It would only be possible if an other creature would have the same mutation at the the same time.

It's not an entirely pleasant thought but I would argue that it occurs when organisms of close relation interbreed (brother x sister, father x daughter, mother x son, etc); that way a new pair of chromosomes would be more likely to become established.

This interbreeding within a tight-knit family group is also more likely to occur in isolation - say if they were deserted on an island away from any other breeding partners of their own species (isolation being a key driving force in evolutionary divergence).

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 Post subject: Re: Science is interesting
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:22 am 
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I don't think interbreeding can trigger something as drastic as adding another chromosome.

Inbreeding is bad because every creature carries a bunch of recessive genes that can cause malfunctions and diseases. If they breed with creatures with similar genes(relatives) this increases the likelihood they get more copies of the same recessive genes (become homozygote for that gene) and thus those recessive genes can be expressed and cause shit.


Addendum:
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isolation being a key driving force in evolutionary divergence


Absolutely true, but in general a large enough portion of the population should be isolated to optimise the chance of successful divergence. The two isolated groups of the same species should also be subject to different environmental conditions so that they can select for different traits through natural selection. The isolation is to prevent these different traits from blending in to one form again.


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