5:59 PM -
Blank is now Online.
6:01 PM -
Blank:
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 83/fd9.jpg6:02 PM -
Airra: But that's not Project M.
6:03 PM -
Airra: Project M gets way more salt than Sm4sh.
6:03 PM -
Airra: So much that its development got canceled, even.
6:03 PM -
Airra: Never even reached its final form.
6:16 PM -
Blank: it's left in a trash state where lucario ducks under everything because i dont play short characters
6:16 PM -
Blank: not even snake's uppercut, which according to you has ankle hit boxes
6:16 PM -
Blank: can hit him
6:16 PM -
Blank: You've recovered onto stage several times and i've done uppercuts right by you
6:16 PM -
Airra: It's launched me into a star KO while I was falling through a platform from behind.
6:16 PM -
Blank: and nothing happens
6:16 PM -
Blank: I also grab over him all the time
6:17 PM -
Blank: Everyone I like playing are the tall characters
6:17 PM -
Blank: aside from mario
6:21 PM -
Blank: I still dont like half of Smash's physics
6:21 PM -
Blank: Like not being able to grab people above on platforms
6:21 PM -
Blank: but you can grab people below you at your ankles
6:23 PM -
Blank: The boot physics work great though
6:24 PM -
Blank: that's about the only good thing in smash
6:24 PM -
Airra: I like the freedom of motion.
6:25 PM -
Blank: I dont ever feel restricted in fighting games
6:26 PM -
Blank: In fact, I like my opponent not being able to run all over the place
6:26 PM -
Blank: Which is already possible enough in fighting games
6:26 PM -
Blank: Even with a maximum distance limit, there's still a lot of room to back up and play keep away
6:27 PM -
Airra: I feel very restricted in traditional fighters. It adds to my feeling of not being in control of my situation much of the time.
6:28 PM -
Blank: Most of Smash is only platforms anyway, there's still a lot of places you cant move to, so it doesnt feel much different to me
6:28 PM -
Blank: I wouldn't argue it, but I could argue Smash is more restrictive
6:29 PM -
Blank: Same with fighting games with ring out mechanics
6:29 PM -
Blank: There's a lot of "you die if you go here" space
6:29 PM -
Blank: "better not be at the edge of the ring or i could lose in a second"
6:30 PM -
Airra: I rather prefer that, myself. Not entirely sure why.
6:30 PM -
Blank: I don't. It highly increases the chance of losing from some tiny mistake
6:30 PM -
Blank: You should know that as a professional of air dodging off stage
6:30 PM -
Blank: I've never been fond of ring out mechanics
6:31 PM -
Blank: Even professional top level tournament players do it
6:31 PM -
Blank: I've seen them make one tiny error and lose stocks plenty of times
6:31 PM -
Blank: because you can fall off stage
6:31 PM -
Airra: I always preferred games that had more locational awareness.
6:32 PM -
Airra: It's
6:32 PM -
Airra: pleasant,
6:32 PM -
Airra: for lack of a better term.
6:32 PM -
Blank: I don't relate because you're never truely free in any fighting game. I've never once thought "wish i could back up even further than this"
6:32 PM -
Blank: Since the objective is to be in range to hit the other person, with just enough space to stay away if needed
6:33 PM -
Blank: Actually
6:33 PM -
Blank: I could relate it to Dark Souls 3 invasions
6:34 PM -
Blank: I absolutely hate the freedom of movement
6:34 PM -
Blank: I hate almost killing someone
6:34 PM -
Blank: then they roll roll roll roll roll roll roll
6:34 PM -
Blank: run run run run run
6:34 PM -
Blank: roll roll roll
6:34 PM -
Blank: heal
6:35 PM -
Airra: Dark Souls I and II didn't have invader heals unless they invested stats into Miracles or farmed limited-use healing items that had long, unskippable animations.
6:35 PM -
Blank: It's just what an actual freedom of movement fighting game would be like to me. Obviously every game has some set of level boundries, but I've never felt "freedom" in any fighting game
6:36 PM -
Blank: Because I've never had any reason to not feel it either
6:36 PM -
Blank: Like, imagine if every single Smash level was just one giant level
6:36 PM -
Blank: and you could run so far away it would take minutes to find the other player
6:36 PM -
Blank: That would feel like freedom
6:36 PM -
Blank: And I would hate it
6:38 PM -
Blank: I could only describe any fighting game as an arena. and an arena only feels like a cage to me, if I had to think of it one way or the other
6:38 PM -
Blank: But I dont have a problem with it
6:39 PM -
Airra:
https://youtu.be/srKD8bAZEnU?t=55s6:40 PM -
Blank: That level would be 1 v 1 trash. I know it's clearly an 8 player level though
6:40 PM -
Blank: What's the point of having all that space if not to just run away and not fight
6:40 PM -
Blank: And at what point does a game become free
6:41 PM -
Blank: The only difference in smash is you are limited by out of bounds
6:41 PM -
Blank: it's still a 2d game
6:41 PM -
Blank: 3d games can have you circle around a ring
6:41 PM -
Blank: but you're still stuck in a ring
6:41 PM -
Blank: is that free
6:41 PM -
Blank: At what point does a traditional fighter have just enough movement to actually be freedom of movement
6:41 PM -
Blank: In no fighting game do you just stand in place like rock-em-sockem robots
6:41 PM -
Blank: none that i've ever played
6:43 PM -
Blank: Like, there are walk-off stages in smash with no platforms
6:43 PM -
Blank: It's the same as a traditional fighter in terms of moement
6:44 PM -
Blank: but you can only go as far as the walk off
6:44 PM -
Blank: instead of an invisible wall
6:44 PM -
Blank: No invisible wall suddenly makes it free? just wondering how you see it
6:44 PM -
Blank: Because in the end, I see a difference between games
6:44 PM -
Blank: but i never thought of the word free
6:44 PM -
Blank: freedom of movement
6:44 PM -
Airra: It's the way the character feels when moving instead of the arena itself.
6:45 PM -
Blank: You can jump, move left and right, crouch in all of them
6:45 PM -
Airra: I know.
6:45 PM -
Airra: But playing a traditional fighting game feels more like I'm moving on rails.
6:46 PM -
Blank: I'm just trying to figure out why that is. You can attack from every angle just like in Smash. The only difference is no platforms
6:46 PM -
Blank: At what point did smash suddenly transition into freedom of movement
6:46 PM -
Blank: despite being 2d in terms of left and right
6:47 PM -
Airra: Trying to think of how to put my thoughts together...
6:48 PM -
Airra: Or at least find something comparable...
6:49 PM -
Airra: Old Castlevania vs Modern Castlevania. The older games, your movement was very heavy and sluggish. After Symphony of the Night, the game's started giving more ways to approach and think about things than "get close, jump when things attack and hit them with a whip".
6:50 PM -
Blank: Yeah, then it's get close jump when things attack
6:50 PM -
Blank: hit them with a sword or mace
6:51 PM -
Blank: Which isn't even a good example anyway
6:51 PM -
Airra: And that's how Smash is.
6:51 PM -
Blank: You have so many options in traditional fighting games to do things
6:51 PM -
Blank: Do you want to command grab
6:51 PM -
Airra: But the points between the "get close and smack things" just feels better.
6:51 PM -
Blank: jump in from above
6:51 PM -
Blank: How so? You're saying Smash has more options?
6:51 PM -
Airra: Movement options.
6:51 PM -
Blank: Like? You can still only move up right left down
6:52 PM -
Airra: That's over-simplifying.
6:53 PM -
Blank: Yes, and specific characters have different ways of moving
6:53 PM -
Blank: some characters melt into the ground
6:53 PM -
Blank: some can teleport across screen
6:53 PM -
Blank: Some have quick dashes
6:54 PM -
Blank: Like, sure you can air dodge in Smash
6:54 PM -
Blank: but you can air dash in guilty gear
6:54 PM -
Blank: at what point is it different
6:54 PM -
Blank: They both have their own ways of moving around
6:54 PM -
Blank: You can shield roll in smash
6:54 PM -
Blank: you can roll in KoF
6:55 PM -
Blank: You can back roll in smash, every fighting game has a back step
6:55 PM -
Blank: I'm just legitimately wondering where exactly the line is drawn from freedom to restricted
6:56 PM -
Blank: Because I can't see it
6:56 PM -
Blank: I oversimplified things, because you're only using different ways to go up left right down
6:56 PM -
Blank: But there, that's the not oversimplified response
6:57 PM -
Airra: And music is just the air vibrating, but people still like different styles of music. I can't really explain where the line gets made.
6:58 PM -
Blank: Yes, and that's like saying
6:58 PM -
Blank: "jazz is more creative than rock"
6:58 PM -
Blank: i dont think either one is more creative
6:58 PM -
Blank: and i dont think either genre of fighting is more free
6:59 PM -
Blank: Different, certainly
7:00 PM -
Blank: I just think freedom of movement is just an illusion as much as someone saying they affected the plot of Fallout 4. and I have no problem with the restrictions
7:02 PM -
Blank: If I had to describe them, they're all restrictive with as much freedom as needed. I wouldn't say any of them are more free personally
7:02 PM -
Blank: They all let you do just enough to get what is needed, done
7:04 PM -
Blank: To clarify, a crazy point would be, what if you could fly a plane in Smash all around the world
7:04 PM -
Blank: that would be a lot more freedom, but it doesnt need something like that
7:04 PM -
Blank: that's just an extreme example
7:11 PM -
Airra: Well, to me, personally, it feels like the difference between being in the pilot's seat of a jet vs a helicopter. They both are able to go wherever they want in the air, but the way they do is just managed differently. They're propelling themselves away from the ground at all times. They're able to go from A to B without having to touch the ground or deal with some pesky obstacle. The only difference is that the helicopter pilot is able to hover in place while the jet pilot is forced to either fly in circles or land. To see it really simply, "they're both not moving on to Point B", but the process behind it is very different for the one piloting.
7:11 PM -
Airra: I was trying to think of a simple metaphor earlier
7:11 PM -
Blank: Analogies always oversimpify
7:11 PM -
Airra: but couldn't think of one.
7:11 PM -
Airra: I know.
7:11 PM -
Blank: The helicopter can hover in place
7:11 PM -
Blank: but cant go as high as a jet
7:11 PM -
Blank: So which one is more free
7:12 PM -
Blank: YOu can move around in Smash with A B and C
7:12 PM -
Blank: you can move around in traditional fighters with D E and F
7:12 PM -
Blank: They're both limited to the stage's space
7:13 PM -
Blank: Freedom is too much of a subjective and philisophical word
7:13 PM -
Blank: Just because you dont feel free with method D doesnt mean method B is more free
7:13 PM -
Airra: And a lot of it has to do with familiarity. If you take the jet pilot and helicopter pilot and switch their vehicles with a very basic "this is how you don't crash" guide, they will be left to be making comparisons to the things they are used to doing. In the end, they won't feel like they're doing the stuff they are normally able to do.
7:13 PM -
Airra: That's how I feel with playing a traditional fighter.
7:14 PM -
Airra: I fly helicopters. I don't fly jets.
7:14 PM -
Blank: Hey, you know
7:14 PM -
Blank: I was a jet pilot, you brought me to helicopters
7:14 PM -
Blank: And I say they're even
7:14 PM -
Blank: So I can make that anology too if you forgot
7:14 PM -
Blank: I wasn't born a smash player
7:15 PM -
Airra: I don't know how I can explain this any farther. I give an explaination to why I feel it's different, and you give one to why it doesn't feel different.
7:15 PM -
Airra: I have a reason why I'm more comfortable.
7:15 PM -
Airra: You have a reason why you don't see a difference in comfort.
7:15 PM -
Airra: I say one thing
7:15 PM -
Airra: you say it doesn't make sense.
7:16 PM -
Airra: There's nothing I can say.
7:16 PM -
Airra: No way I can explain.
7:16 PM -
Airra: You have your viewpoint and I have mine.
7:16 PM -
Airra: Yours says "there's no difference"
7:16 PM -
Airra: Mine says "I see one from where I am".
7:16 PM -
Blank: Reaching that conclusion isn't even where I was heading with this.
7:17 PM -
Airra: I don't even know what this is even about, then.
7:17 PM -
Blank: The biggest concern of mine is that I feel like you're pretending the freedom is something it isn't so that you are able to enjoy it more. That's why I brought up Fallout 4
7:17 PM -
Blank: Like saying 'i have so many story options that are so important'
7:17 PM -
Blank: When I feel like both genres should be appreciated for their restrictiveness
7:17 PM -
Blank: And how much you can do with limited resources
7:18 PM -
Blank: Like taking a few blocks and building a masterpiece
7:18 PM -
Blank: I think it's great they're restrictive. So it's a shame that someone sees Smash as free to me
7:18 PM -
Blank: Without seeing how great it is to be able to do so much in restriction
7:19 PM -
Blank: But like you said, youre just going to always see it as free
7:20 PM -
Airra: Where Smash is limited is what you can do to actually hit the other person. Hitting people in a traditional fighter feels much less restrictive.
7:21 PM -
Airra: In some games, you have at least twelve options for what to do at a given distance to start the offensive. In Smash, you are limited to around four or so effective options based on situation.
7:21 PM -
Airra: In a traditional fighter, your movement depends on if you're actively offensive or defensive. Smash, your movement don't really care.
7:22 PM -
Blank: Smash, your movement don't really care."
7:22 PM -
Blank: I think we've identified the problem in your win streak
7:23 PM -
Airra: Like, if you're getting hit and launched into the air, you still have a choice in how you fly off. If you get launched into the air in something like King of Fighters, you're in the air until you reach the ground.
7:23 PM -
Airra: Like, sure, Guilty Gear and BlazBlue have air techs. I know.
7:23 PM -
Blank: Yes, and you can proceed to do attacks out of those air techs
7:24 PM -
Blank: If you go back and forth between the freedom being 50/50 because you can do this in smash but not that in Smash
7:24 PM -
Airra: And Brawl/Smash 4 have infinite frame-1 air dodges that can be spammed.
7:24 PM -
Blank: then that just feels like my point
7:24 PM -
Blank: Either they're both free
7:24 PM -
Blank: or they're both restrictive
7:24 PM -
Airra: It's just a different flavor.
7:24 PM -
Blank: Yes, but the problem is you said one is free
7:24 PM -
Airra: And I like that flavor.
7:24 PM -
Blank: and not the other
7:24 PM -
Airra: I only said it about movement.
7:25 PM -
Blank: Yes, and they both have movement flavor
7:25 PM -
Blank: Liking Smash's more doesnt make it freedom
7:25 PM -
Airra: It's like saying "I like how this taco is crunchier than this toasted sandwich."
7:25 PM -
Blank: But that doesnt make one taco more of a taco
7:25 PM -
Blank: than the other one
7:25 PM -
Blank: Analogies are terrible.
7:25 PM -
Airra: I wasn't comparing tacos.
7:26 PM -
Blank: Yes, you are saying
7:26 PM -
Airra: It was a taco and a sandwich.
7:26 PM -
Blank: I like how i can move in this as opposed to that
7:26 PM -
Blank: therefore this is freedom
7:26 PM -
Blank: I can name my objective reasons they are restricted to me
7:26 PM -
Blank: At the very least, even if you think smash is freedom
7:26 PM -
Blank: Traditional fighters should feel free too
7:26 PM -
Blank: Even if youd ont like it
7:27 PM -
Blank: I can understand feeling freedom
7:27 PM -
Blank: What i dont understand is seeing a difference
7:27 PM -
Blank: to the point where one is freedom and one isnt
7:27 PM -
Airra: You don't get locked in corners for fortty seconds at a time.
7:27 PM -
Blank: Yes, instead you get tech chased chain grabbed
7:28 PM -
Blank: Just because I cant do it, doesnt mean its not a thing
7:28 PM -
Airra: And I still feel like I have options during that.
7:28 PM -
Blank: Against who?
7:28 PM -
Airra: It's very subjective.
7:28 PM -
Airra: Everyone.
7:28 PM -
Airra: It's subjective.
7:28 PM -
Airra: Very, very subjective.
7:28 PM -
Blank: Yes, it is
7:28 PM -
Blank: Because obejctively, guilty gear has options for one
7:28 PM -
Blank: You can burst out
7:28 PM -
Blank: you can tech roll
7:28 PM -
Blank: you can barrier counter
7:28 PM -
Blank: you can jump out
7:28 PM -
Airra: And it's excessively difficult for me to explain my opinions.
7:28 PM -
Blank: you can counter hit
7:28 PM -
Blank: you can i frame dragon punch
7:29 PM -
Blank: What can you do in smash? the same thing
7:29 PM -
Blank: hope youre not read by your opponent
7:29 PM -
Blank: so you dont get grabbed
7:29 PM -
Blank: You keep seeing the options of one and neglecting the options of traditional fighters because you personally cant do those things to escape a corner
7:29 PM -
Blank: im trying to be objective
7:29 PM -
Airra: And in Smash, you can walk, run, dash, short-hop, full hop, double jump, fast fall, air dodge, spot dodge, roll, fall stall, adjust momentum and so on and so forth.
7:30 PM -
Airra: I can list actions, too.
7:30 PM -
Blank: You can walk in traditjional fighters, you can dash, short hop, full hop, double jump, air tech, air dash, and change air momentum
7:30 PM -
Blank: They both have actions, so what's the difference.
7:30 PM -
Airra: There's not much to be objective about when you ask something that requires a subjective statement in response.
7:31 PM -
Airra: Because all of this boils down to personal preference.
7:31 PM -
Blank: How? because you dont know enough facts? i can list similiarities for both. completely objectively
7:31 PM -
Blank: It's a fact you can run in both
7:31 PM -
Blank: how is that objective
7:31 PM -
Airra: Yes. And you do stuff by pressing buttons.
7:31 PM -
Blank: Yes, even more of a similarity
7:31 PM -
Blank: Simplified or not, they both have actions
7:31 PM -
Airra: I know.
7:32 PM -
Blank: See, you're arguing that you prefer Smash to traditional fighters
7:32 PM -
Blank: fair enough
7:32 PM -
Airra: You asked why I am more comfortable with one than another. It feels like you're trying to convince me that I shouldn't be like that.
7:32 PM -
Blank: But youre not saying what is freedom
7:32 PM -
Blank: No, im saying maybe freedom was a bad choice of words
7:32 PM -
Blank: Nothing weird about prefering moving in one
7:33 PM -
Blank: But what is weird, is acting like one is more restrictive when objectively they both having various things you can do
7:33 PM -
Airra: I'm not saying it objectively is more or less restrictive.
7:33 PM -
Airra: I'm saying it feels that way.
7:34 PM -
Airra: Something that is subjective.
7:38 PM -
Airra: I just don't see why it's this big thing where my opinion has to be wrong.
7:39 PM -
Blank: "has to be wrong" because i'm not trying to ask questions and see things your way at all
7:39 PM -
Blank: Next time, i'll just say you're wrong, and ask nothing
7:39 PM -
Blank: since you 'have to be wrong'
7:39 PM -
Blank: Sorry for trying to inquire your viewpoint
7:39 PM -
Airra: I tried to give my viewpoint.
7:39 PM -
Airra: I tried over and over.
7:40 PM -
Blank: Yes, and I am listening to it, just because we reach no agreement at no point
7:40 PM -
Blank: did i EVER
7:40 PM -
Blank: sa y it was wrong
7:40 PM -
Blank: You are telling em things and im telling you why my viewpoint is different, and trying to find some sort of common ground
7:40 PM -
Blank: but nooo everyone is out to get airra
7:41 PM -
Blank: everyone is out to get everyone
7:41 PM -
Blank: iv heard the stories before
7:41 PM -
Airra: Now you're making this about how I'm emotional and think everyone is trying to get me.
7:42 PM -
Blank: But am I wrong?
7:42 PM -
Blank: since you wanted to say im trying to say youre wrong
7:42 PM -
Blank: yet im the one making this about something else
7:42 PM -
Blank: If youre not getting emotional, feel free to say so
7:43 PM -
Airra: Well, yes. I'm not trying to be emotional. From my perspective, things are just matching up to things I'm used to when having conversations with others. My personal experience is fighting with what I know is not actually happening, as I said before this morning.
7:43 PM -
Airra: I just want confirmation that it's not happening.
7:43 PM -
Airra: But you're seemingly turning things into personal attacks on my being as a person and calling me out on things.
7:44 PM -
Airra: And it's getting passive-aggressive, from my viewpoint.
7:44 PM -
Blank:
Airra: I just don't see why it's this big thing where my opinion has to be wrong.
didnt start attacking me like im trying to attack you
7:44 PM -
Blank: When I cant have a simple debate on something
7:45 PM -
Blank: I'm even trying to give you the benefit of the doubt you wont get emotional this time
7:45 PM -
Blank: I even just asked you
7:45 PM -
Airra: You know I have trouble processing information from other's viewpoints. That was poorly worded, the thing you quoted.
7:45 PM -
Blank: yet im apparently trying to say youre wrong about everything
7:46 PM -
Blank: Well, then dont be surprised when I say something that might offend
7:46 PM -
Airra: I'm not good with words.
7:46 PM -
Blank: when you say something poorly worded
7:46 PM -
Blank: If someone is trying to express a minor degree of disatisfaction but says something like 'hate' i can get the wrong idea
7:46 PM -
Blank: and say something bad in return
7:46 PM -
Blank: I'm just trying to have a civilized talk
7:47 PM -
Airra: I never said "hate" did I?
7:47 PM -
Blank: Example. you never did
7:47 PM -
Blank: I just mean when a phase conveys the wrong meaning, things can go very bad
7:47 PM -
Blank: Saying that i think you just 'have to be wrong'is too far
7:48 PM -
Blank: Might as well just go ahead and say im a bad friend who doesnt value your opinion
7:48 PM -
Blank: Which if that's what you think, fair enough
7:48 PM -
Blank: its yoru opinion
7:48 PM -
Blank: I never even argued that you couldnt like one over the other, i was just trying to ask about one specific thing
7:48 PM -
Airra: I already stated today, I have a lot of trouble shedding the negative thought patterns that my family raised me to have.
7:48 PM -
Airra: And it affects my word choice.
7:49 PM -
Blank: Yes, and I know that. But it's not going to make everything fine. I take it into consideration, but another trash analogy here but
7:49 PM -
Blank: if someone is raised by wolves and attacks me and hurts me
7:49 PM -
Blank: it's not going to be ok
7:49 PM -
Airra: I know.
7:49 PM -
Blank: I wont get completely upset because i understand
7:49 PM -
Blank: but its not completely fine either
7:50 PM -
Airra: What I should have said was "It's starting to feel this way, but I don't really know if it is and need confirmation."
7:50 PM -
Blank: It's hard to have any sort of talk that can be seen as negative, because it gets related to past family things
7:51 PM -
Blank: But i'm not going to shy away from negative things. This part has nothing to do with you, but for me personally, life isnt a wonderland
7:51 PM -
Blank: Im not afraid to get into an arguement with friends
7:51 PM -
Blank: Close people fight. It's only normal
7:52 PM -
Blank: But anyway, no, I'm not trying to say you have to be wrong
7:52 PM -
Blank: I'm never going to see things your way on that but
7:52 PM -
Airra: And I have post-traumatic stress from a lot of emotional abuse from throughout my life in which my feelings were always devalued as being less than others. I'm trying to fight against the thoughts that come from that as best as I can.
7:52 PM -
Blank: I am trying to see why you see it, and reach some level of understanding
7:52 PM -
Blank: So I can see why you would think I'm saying youre wrong
7:53 PM -
Airra: And I'm really sorry.
7:53 PM -
Airra: Because I know you're not so heartless as to do that, but...
7:55 PM -
Airra: If someone gets shot once, they get jumpy when they thing someone is reaching for a gun. And then it just turns out to be a nice photograph...
7:55 PM -
Airra: I'm just really sorry.
7:55 PM -
Airra: I can understand your point of view, but I have no idea how to express mine.
7:56 PM -
Airra: Becausepeopletotallycarryaroundphysicalphotographsin2016
7:58 PM -
Blank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmHfqvikqqc7:59 PM -
Airra: I'msohappythatIdidn'tsuddenlygetsensitivetosoundfromallthis.
-----
PBS KIDS SHOW FRIENDSHIP RESOLUTION THAT MAKES THE WORLD BETTER AND FRIENDSHIPS LAST FOREVER
And continue.
-----
8:17 PM -
Airra: In other news, I decided to ask the Smash community what they thought of movement in the middle of that because I was getting curious.
8:17 PM -
Airra: "Tekken player here. Smash's movement is still weird to me. We actually have Wavedashing, but it feels so different to me. I can't consistently Wavedash in Melee/PM like I can in Tekken, and it doesn't really work the same way. I think compared to other 2D fighters, Smash has a lot more freedom. I move better in Smash than I do in Street Fighter or King of Fighters or even Mahvel. But I personally don't think the movement is as free as a 3D fighter. "
8:18 PM -
Blank: In relation to what I was asking, I wanted to know where the line betweeen free and restrictive is
8:19 PM -
Blank: You move more slugishly in 3d fighters, but that person says they think it's the most free
8:19 PM -
Blank: The problem with a question like that, is I'm jsut trying to say all fruits are fruit
8:19 PM -
Blank: and no fruit is more of a fruit than any other
8:20 PM -
Blank: It's not about who likes what the best, for me
8:20 PM -
Blank: It's about how everything is actually similar
8:20 PM -
Blank: Like not being able to rocket jump in call of duty doesnt mean it's not freedom
8:20 PM -
Airra: You never asked that directly.
8:21 PM -
Blank:
Blank: At what point did smash suddenly transition into freedom of movement
8:21 PM -
Blank: i asked several times
8:21 PM -
Blank: in different ways
8:21 PM -
Airra: You were asking what was different.
8:21 PM -
Airra: I was trying to answer what was different.
8:21 PM -
Airra: The point you just now clarified as trying to make seems more like "what's similar"
8:22 PM -
Blank: I was asking where the difference between freedom and restrictive is
8:22 PM -
Blank: ANd I still am
8:22 PM -
Airra: I really don't know.
8:22 PM -
Blank:
Blank: In relation to what I was asking, I wanted to know where the line betweeen free and restrictive is
8:22 PM -
Blank: that is the only thing I have ever been asking
8:22 PM -
Airra: And I don't know.
8:23 PM -
Blank: I know. Im just sayng the problem with what people feel is subjectivity. I'm trying to see where people draw the freedom line
8:23 PM -
Blank: Not what people feel is free
8:23 PM -
Blank: I move better in Smash than I do in Street Fighter or King of Fighters or even Mahvel
8:23 PM -
Blank: is what they said
8:23 PM -
Blank: so because they personally play better, that makes it more free?
8:23 PM -
Blank: but if someone plays a 2d better
8:23 PM -
Blank: that makes it more free?
8:23 PM -
Blank: that's way too subjective
8:24 PM -
Blank: I wanted a list of objective reasons that one is more freedom than another
8:24 PM -
Airra: It's like asking "what is 'pop flyin''?"
8:24 PM -
Blank: So, youre saying that theres no objective happyness that someone can say?
8:24 PM -
Blank: No one in the universe can describe it?
8:25 PM -
Airra: How would you describe it?
8:25 PM -
Blank: Happiness is a mental or emotional state of well-being defined by positive or pleasant emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy. pop flyin' mental states may also reflect judgements by a person about their overall well-being.
8:26 PM -
Blank: You can objectively list what gives a subjective opinion
8:26 PM -
Blank: I think this game has freedom because ______ while 2d does not have _____ so it is not freedom
8:26 PM -
Blank: Whether or not that's objective on a whole isn't an issue
8:26 PM -
Blank: It's all about the fine line
8:26 PM -
Blank: Because smash has movement options
8:26 PM -
Blank: but so does 2d
8:27 PM -
Blank: So where is the differential line
8:27 PM -
Blank: You keep getting caught up on things that aren't a part of the arguement
8:27 PM -
Blank: and making analogies that really arent helping
8:27 PM -
Blank: because you cant compare these situations perfectly
8:28 PM -
Blank: I don't care what user think which one is free. All i care about is they clearly define their opinion
8:28 PM -
Blank: "I can't consistently Wavedash in Melee/PM like I can in Tekken, and it doesn't really work the same way" apparently just means, if i'm not good at it
8:28 PM -
Blank: it's not freedom
8:29 PM -
Airra: Well, I am incapable of telling someone why something makes me pop flyin', or sad, or anything like that. So I just can't define why something else would feel like something to me.
8:29 PM -
Blank: Which sounds like what yous aid with the helicopter and jet thing
8:30 PM -
Blank: Basically, the definition of freedom of movement is just subjectively being good at it
8:30 PM -
Blank: I am not incapable of telling someone why I am feeling an emotion
8:31 PM -
Blank: In fact, there's actually even objective scientific reasons
8:31 PM -
Blank: involving electric signals
8:31 PM -
Blank: and chemical reactions
8:31 PM -
Blank: On top of humans developing and evolving to have emotional responses
8:31 PM -
Blank: So there's really both objective and subjective explanations
8:31 PM -
Blank: I don't like analogies anyway
8:32 PM -
Blank: There's never a 1:1 comparison
8:32 PM -
Airra: So you're asking for perfection?
8:33 PM -
Blank: Not at all
8:34 PM -
Blank: As i've said before. I think that all of the fighting games are restrictive because no matter which one it is, you are limited to a set arena with various tools that allow you to move about. The tools may be different, but there is not enough of a variation to make any of them feel like they have more freedom. My main focus is that, simplified or not, you're just moving around a limited arena to hit your opponent
8:34 PM -
Blank: I have never seen a fighting game offer any option that allows for any more freedom
8:34 PM -
Blank: At their cores, they are all the same. And no, I don't mean
8:35 PM -
Blank: "well eery game ever is the same
8:35 PM -
Blank: it's all just data
8:35 PM -
Blank: let me make a counter point by super super over simplifiying
8:35 PM -
Blank: because you trying to simplify is stupid"
8:36 PM -
Blank: It's not like there's a free roam fighting game where you have a huge pvp overworld sort of thing, where you can just go and do whatever
8:36 PM -
Blank: You are placed into a limited space and made to fight
8:37 PM -
Blank: It's not like in a 3d game where you have something like terrain advantages
8:37 PM -
Blank: "i would be better off fighting in a mountain area
8:37 PM -
Blank: let me leave this forrest level mid battle"
8:37 PM -
Blank: But the thing is, Restrictive =/= bad
8:37 PM -
Blank: I like them for what they are, and to me they should be restrictive
8:39 PM -
Blank: And that's on the level of open area vs closed arena. As for player movement, they're all pretty similar even if there are variations
8:39 PM -
Blank: And that's on the level of open area vs closed arena. As for player movement, they're all pretty similar even if there are variations
8:39 PM -
Blank: Call it simplified or not, but you're just moving towards your opponent. Only in Smash do you not facce your opponent at nearly all times
8:40 PM -
Blank: But even that is just an illusion of more freedom
8:40 PM -
Blank: Just because you can run away by not facing your opponent
8:40 PM -
Blank: doesnt mean you cant run away in traditional fighters
8:40 PM -
Blank: You just have to back up instead of turn around
8:40 PM -
Blank: which is something Smash doesnt have
8:40 PM -
Blank: Aside from wave dashing
8:40 PM -
Blank: You can only slide back, not walk back
8:40 PM -
Blank: while facing your opponent
8:41 PM -
Blank: I don't even care if someone agrees that all of them are restrictive. I just think at the very least, none are more Freedom than the other
8:41 PM -
Blank: even if someone feels free in al of them
8:41 PM -
Blank: Which stiiiiiiilll isnt the point. Those are just side things
8:42 PM -
Blank: I asked at what point does a game become freedom, let me put it the other way around
8:42 PM -
Blank: The point at which fighters became restrictive
8:43 PM -
Blank: Is when they were all put into arenas where your goal is to attack the other player
8:43 PM -
Blank: I don't ever feel freedom in any game tailored to competitive play
8:43 PM -
Blank: Not in a moba
8:43 PM -
Blank: not in a fighter
8:43 PM -
Blank: not in a rts
8:44 PM -
Airra: ... Movement in other fighters is generally a committed action, perhaps?
8:44 PM -
Airra: You start an action, and the opponent generally knows how that action is going to follow through.
8:44 PM -
Blank: That's the same in Smash isn't it
8:44 PM -
Blank: I know what you're trying to do half the time
8:44 PM -
Airra: When you jump, your jumps generally take you into the air with no option to return to the ground early.
8:44 PM -
Blank: Except for attacks
8:44 PM -
Blank: or air dashing
8:44 PM -
Blank: or blocking
8:45 PM -
Blank: or a late double jump
8:45 PM -
Airra: If you jump in Smash, you can go straight into the ground with a wave dash and aren't forced to remain airborne.
8:45 PM -
Blank: I know you said early, but you can use attacks to fast fall
8:45 PM -
Blank: In fact
8:45 PM -
Blank: SOl players like to do a dive kick
8:45 PM -
Blank: then roman cancel it
8:45 PM -
Blank: so they cancel the kick and land really fast
8:46 PM -
Airra: But not all 2D fighters have options like that on all the characters.
8:46 PM -
Airra: In fact, I see BlazBlue/Guilty Gear as the most free in terms of movement.
8:46 PM -
Airra: With, for obvious example, Street Fighter as the most restrictive.
8:47 PM -
Blank: Also, the most unfair thing is to name one specific game against the entirety of a genre
8:47 PM -
Blank: But that aside, just because Smash has one option, doesnt invalidate the options of another genre
8:47 PM -
Blank: Like, sure you can land fast in smash
8:47 PM -
Blank: but you can't air block
8:47 PM -
Airra: King of Fighters is also restrictive like Street Fighter, but it has a sprint instead of a forward dash.
8:48 PM -
Blank: So, what it seems like you think, is that freedom means free-form creativity
8:48 PM -
Blank: The games youre naming as restrictive
8:48 PM -
Blank: are the more technical fighters
8:48 PM -
Blank: but you can be creative in those too
8:48 PM -
Blank: just in a slower paced way
8:49 PM -
Airra: Free-form!
8:49 PM -
Airra: That's the word!
8:49 PM -
Airra: Term.
8:49 PM -
Airra: Words.
8:49 PM -
Blank: That's a better word, although I would still disagree
8:49 PM -
Airra: We apparently had a different definition this entire time.
8:49 PM -
Blank: But that is another entire arguement
8:49 PM -
Blank: Because every fighting game has creative combos and mind games
8:49 PM -
Airra: It's easy to be creative within bounds. I do not argue that point.
8:50 PM -
Airra: In fact, the most creative games have many restrictions.
8:50 PM -
Airra: That creativity requires in-depth knowledge of your restrictions, however.
8:50 PM -
Blank: See, if you use the word free-form
8:50 PM -
Blank: That doesn't dispute with my standpoint
8:50 PM -
Blank: I can call all fighting games restrictive
8:50 PM -
Blank: with a lot of free-form
8:50 PM -
Airra: That's how I define "Freedom" in terms of gaming.
8:52 PM -
Blank: Actually, those two words would be how I describe competitive games and why I like them
8:52 PM -
Blank: You're given a restrictive box to come out on top through free-form creativity
8:53 PM -
Blank: Even though there's also obvious flow charts for all games
8:53 PM -
Blank: Where you know someone is picking ____ character or faction
8:53 PM -
Blank: with a specific goal in mind
8:53 PM -
Blank: Like, you see ganon, you know you're going to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3k5EAN97wE8:53 PM -
Blank: and when I see lucario, i know those whiff side b's are coming
8:54 PM -
Blank: LOOK AT YOU
8:54 PM -
Blank: NOW YOUVE WENT AND RAMPAGED THROUGH TOKYO
8:54 PM -
Blank: STARTED A FORUM WAR
8:55 PM -
Blank: AND WENT THROUGH PTSD
8:55 PM -
Blank: ALL BECAUSE OF WORD CHOICES
8:55 PM -
Blank: The only good thing
8:55 PM -
Blank: is I have pizza
8:55 PM -
Blank: and you dont
8:55 PM -
Airra: You're a jerk.
8:55 PM -
Airra: I want pizza.
8:55 PM -
Blank: And you're an Airra!
8:56 PM -
Blank: I will leave that up to reader interpretation
8:56 PM -
Blank: as to which one is worse
8:56 PM -
Airra: FINE
Okay, readers. Which one is worse, the jerk or the Airra?
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