AWKWARD ZOMBIE

It's still not right to treat people that way. They may have come desperately by illegal means, but they are still asylum seekers. If my personal quality of life drops a little so that Syrian children can attend school in my country, so be it.

Also, Asians got a hard time too. In the 1800s, during the gold rush, white prospectors had no issue bashing/murdering Chinese prospectors for fear of them taking the gold. WW2 Asians were bashed, accused of being 'Japs' despite the fact that the Chinese were allies. I'm sure Vietnamese folks didn't have an easy time of it either. Even now there are Asian children who have to ignore it when other kids pull back the corners of their eyes and sing 'ching chong'. Asians have suffered too, and to hold them up like some kinda ideal submissive immigrant is wrong.

There are Asian suburbs here. There's Jewish areas, Greek areas. Those suburbs become points of interest. You go to Glen Waverley for good noodles, you go to Elternwick for bagels. Lygon Street for Gelati. The country is richer for it. Integration via education, and language are acceptable things to ask. Integration via cultural submission, I can't agree with.

The idea that European cultural values are somehow pure is a complete myth. I see this all the time with Swedish nationalist groups that seem to be under the impression that modern Sweden sprang fully formed from the head of Gustav Vasa. The Sweden we know is a mishmash of German, French and Russian influences dating back not even a century, and thats not even touching on the cultural stuff picked up from Italian immigrants after WW2. The same goes for the other European powers, all of them have been shaped by trading, immigration and their own colonial past. You could go back a century and it would be a different place alltogether.

No one saying you're alone in your opinion, but that doesnt make your opinion correct.

Oh you mean the countries suffering under fundamentalist theocracies? No, I dont particularly think we need that here. I dont think we need fundamentalist christianity here either, if Uganda is anything to go by. If your argument is that religion can be used as a weapon, thats not exactly news.

The reason I blame goverments and corporations is that they hold all the real power in society. cheddar, authority, military force, there's very little the population can do to actually influence them. Look at the riots back during the Arab Spring, people arent all that pop flyin' about their goverments behavior in middle eastern countries either, but do they care? No. Do they change? No no.

Hey, its not like its hard to find forums that'll enthusiastically agree with everything you said.

2 cents: Mete, I think you made a lot of good points about the economic/social problems that immigration can cause and that many parts of Islam directly conflict with many Western values. However it seems like the main sticking point is that your proposed action boils down to "shut down everything".

I don't have much background on this issue, but I do think that people have a right to move to new countries and that welcoming them to share in a country's prosperity, regardless of race or creed, is a generous thing to do. I can understand if there are limits that need to be put on immigration, but surely there must be a more diplomatic solution to a flood of immigrants than just putting up walls. Maybe it's possible to have some form of cultural education? Some way to divert more resources into crime prevention in troubled areas? Some way to reach more people and say "Hey, you can live in this country if you want, but here are our rules."?

Wow, uh, not that I don't agree with you, but maybe calling someone gross and telling them to get lost is a little unnecessary.

Let's get back to polite debate? Or maybe just dropping this subject.

Seriously. I don't agree with most of what Mete had to say but honestly, telling him to leave the forum because his views are different from your own? This is already after Mete said he was dropping out of the debate. Don't kick the man when he's down.

Yes, I am appalled and think the people who hang others for their differences are even worse. If they came on these forums to defend that, I'd tell them so too.

I didn't say "get lost" to mean that Mete should leave. Besides, I don't think this is quite socking compared to calling an entire culture and a fifth of the human population retrograde scroungers bent on destroying our western culture.

Syobon, I am not a moron either. It's easy to cherry-pick an article to find what suits you. I do know women are faced with discriminations in some of these countries but this isn't the case in every single Islamic country. Women were in positions of power in most Islamic countries in the past century and it's true to this day too. Contrary to what Mete preaches this is not all black and white. Besides, our own western cultures are sexist and discriminatory towards minorities in their own ways - certainly not to the point of imprisonments and assassination attempts for political figures, yes.

I won't argue about the immigration aspect because I know we need tighter regulations and a better way to take care of people who want to come to our countries - without putting them in ghettos or letting them on their own. I agree that there are standards of living we all should strive for but I think this is only tangentially connected to immigration as many will try to profit off the system if the system lets them.
I don't believe for one second that Muslims aren't able to integrate themselves because they don't wish to - the segregation and discrimination and "othering" that have been happening for ages are what causes this. They go to countries where people fear and hate them for things they haven't done as individuals - people blame what they see on TV on them, their neighbours.
Yes, they do bring their culture with them but it is not incompatible with ours. You know what the biggest problem Muslims in France have with integration? People who don't respect their culture, people who fear them and attack them, people who refuse to let them integrate. So I can see why they would be angry, disgusted and disappointed - when a mayor refuses to let them build a mosque, when politicians don't want to let a store have a Halal aisle, when people deface their graves or tag the walls of their homes. Because when you treat a whole culture with contempt, fear and hate, you're not going to make them see you in a good light either. And that what centuries of distrust and hatemongering has achieved, cultures that are too afraid of each others to try to integrate - and the people that do try are shunned and attacked for doing so. We have to try and get above that, that's all.

Moving forward as human beings, bettering ourselves making our world better, not standing for injustice and hate. I know this all sounds very cliché.

No, I'm not saying we should base our policies on an ideal world - we should base our policies on making our world as good as we can. In my opinion.

I don't see how extremely lax immigration laws will lead to that.

Again I was not talking about that, popo.

You were, because the issue here is immigration laws. Mete advocates restrictions based on how the pending immigrant would affect the country, and you are arguing against this.