AWKWARD ZOMBIE

also it is highly important to remember that, when it comes right down to it, a Christian is simply any baptized individual that believed in God and the divinity of Jesus Christ. From that definition, I'd say that means not every single christian follows the bible strictly, or even uses it as a source of ultimate wisdom and truth. For many, MANY people, it is an inspiration. The stories and passages inspire people and help them through things, in the same way a motivational book or speaker might. Of course many people attribute holy and divine powers to the creation of the book, but many others simply use the stories within a guidelines on how to live their lives.

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that many christian and catholic teachings do not really concentrate on the Old Testament very much at all, but instead concentrate more on the new testament (particularly those parts dealing with the life and teachings of Jesus. If you want to be super mad about Christians then fine ok. If you don't understand them or their belief then fine ok. Just remember that just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's worthless or doesn't make any sense at all. Try to learn a little more about something before sharing very narrow minded opinions. It won't help you understand anything, and will only perpetuate divisions between people.

Even if it is written down, religion is always in flux. Everyone, even if they say they're a fundamentalist adapts and interprets the good book differently depending on the culture and the values they believe in. A christian in Britain probably won't live by the exact same set of rules that a christian in malaysia would.

Organized religion is a very big tent. One that often doesn't get along, granted.

Continuing from the confession thread.

Benson, would it really kill you to use my preferred pronouns? Is it really that hard? If you type "they" instead of "she" will your mind explode or your fingers wither away into claws? It's what I'd like, and using the proper pronoun is easy regardless of what you believe.

Who are you to say what I'm allowed to feel like? I have considered what 'male' and 'female' and other gender terms mean to me, and have decided that I don't really like applying either to who I am as a person. My definition of self is not hurting or threatening you or anyone else. Are you really going to say that I flat out shouldn't be allowed to think of myself except as female? You can't just police my thoughts like that, sorry.

In addition, could you please explain exactly how it is 'stupid' for me to believe that my personal identity as a human being isn't necessarily gendered? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

I'll argue this with you, but then I'm out.

It's not whether it would hurt me or not to do it, it's just that it doesn't make a lot of sense. You were born a female, so you're a female. You can't just choose to be something you're not just because it's what you would prefer. You have a vagina, your body makes eggs, you have a period, you're a girl. That's it. You can't choose to be neither.


Also, I'm no longer white, you guys may refer to me as being black from now on because I feel like a black person.

Race has nothing to do with gender or gender identity at all.

And Granny, if that's your logic for what determines someone's gender, then how would you classify someone who was born intersexed?

You're really quitting the entire site because the way that I, one member of the site, and not even a very active one, choose to identify one aspect of myself? That's a bit of a trivial thing to flee over, no?

Anyway. You are construing gender as being entirely a configuration of genitalia, an aspect of the physical form. I do, indeed, accept that I have a vagina, and ovaries, and all that shit. However, gender also exists as a social thing. There is such a thing as the perception of certain behavioral aspects, personality traits, and such as "masculine" or "feminine." Long hair is feminine; short hair is masculine. There is the idea of the social concept of "male" or "female" - you look at someone and go "they are a man" or "they are a woman," not just "that person has a penis" or "that person has a vagina."

I'm not saying I don't have a uterus, or ovaries, or any of that. I do. What I am rejecting is the sociocultural entity/concept that is "female." You cannot claim that bodaciously the only thing you psychologically associate with "female" is physiology.

So, you're prioritizing your concept of what makes sense over my comfort as a human being? In what way is this not rude or disrespectful? I doubt you typing the four letters "they" hurts you more than being persistently identified as something I'm not hurts me.

And gender is not the same as race. I'm not even getting into that because that's not my argument here. I want to keep this a focused discussion.

If someone was intersexed, I'd refer to them as whatever the dominant sex is. If they're equally dominant, then I would refer to them as whichever one they want. They still couldn't be neither though.

If you can choose to be a different gender, then why can't I choose to be a different race? If I feel black, then I'm black.

@Banter. I'm not just quitting just because of you...there's other reasons too that I'd rather not get into. Yea, to me, gender is entirely physically based. A guy can act like a woman all he wants, but to me, he is still a guy. And vice versa. What if you were to get some sort of teaching job? Would your title be Mr., Mrs., or It?

See the thing is gender is defined by hormones in the brain and race isn't so that argument is completely irrelevant.


Okay what the hell no
Gender roles =/= gender
you can wear dresses and be a boy it's just fabric
you can have short hair and be a girl it's a measurement for god's sake

Benson. We are not discussing race here. That is not a relevant comparison. We are not letting the discussion wander off into that territory.

Did you not read what I just typed? About there being some social concept of masculine vs. feminine, of male vs. female? Are you denying that there is such a thing as perceived "masculine" and "feminine" behavior? Your very phrase "act like a girl" asserts that you believe such a thing exists. I am not claiming that my genitals are not what they are, I am not arguing biology, I am arguing social issues.

Oh fuck, there are only two gendered titles for people in our society? Someone get me an ice pack, because I just got burned. Put me on a plate because I think I just got served. I must be on the ground because I just got smacked down. Was there an auction? Because I just got owned.

No, but actually, how is that relevant? How does that prove that I cannot identify without a gender? Because I need to conform to that one arbitrary social construct that is titles? And for your information, the gender-neutral title for people, in places that have one, is Mx.

And Malum, I know. Gender roles aren't gender. I was just trying to express the existence of gender as social and not just biological, that the perceptions of gender are not purely "what genitals u got man". Perhaps I didn't word it the best way but I didn't mean to imply in any way that gender expression is the same thing as gender.

Edit: To elaborate on that, Malum. I was saying that if someone has long hair and a dress, purely social things, society is more likely to perceive them as female from looking at them. I'm not saying that this perception isn't completely arbitrary bullshit, because I think it is. I'm just trying to say to Benson that what makes people go "this person is male/female" isn't just "oh huh they have/don't have a cock." or whatever physiology.

Well, I'm obviously not winning this argument, so I might as well quit while I'm ̶a̶h̶e̶a̶d̶ behind. I'm not going to change your opinion, and you're not going to change mine.


I would still like to know what an it's title would be. Also, would your kids call you mom, dad, or just parent?

I told you, the title is Mx. And by saying "it" you are likening me to an inanimate object, which I find offensive, so stop that, please. I'm a human being. And I don't plan on having kids, but I really don't see the lack of an informal gender-neutral term for "parent" as a reason that nobody is allowed to identify as anything but male or female.

I've noticed people do this white debating/arguing a lot more, like it's some sort of failsafe for when you want to get out quick.
Just so you know, it doesn't make you more mature, or appear any less stubborn.

For some reason using the word they makes me think you think of yourself has being more than everyone else, since they is usually used when referring to more than one person. It actually kinda offends me, and I'm not going to use it.

@Malum. Well, I have lost this, so I'm not using it as a failsafe. You can call me stubborn all you like, but I'm still going to keep my view on gender the same.

That's the silliest argument against "they" as a pronoun i've ever heard

have you never heard someone use a singular 'they' before, granny

like when you don't know the gender of a single person

like maybe 'if you find out who wrote this book, tell them i love their work' for example

only one person wrote the book, in that case. sure, maybe you personally use he/she. but would you be offended if someone said the above example? there's quite a historical precedent for use of the singular 'they'.

and really? it offends you because you think it's kind of smug? do you think that's more offensive to you than it is to me to be likened to a goddamn inanimate object?