AWKWARD ZOMBIE

Kinda like excessive mutations, huh?

You're arguing against the likelihood of inbreeding causing mutations with a comment saying that inbreeding causes more frequent mutations.

Self-contradiction; If I was in a courtroom I would shout "OBJECTION!"


Granted, some of the mutations would be damaging, but also there's the possibility that some of the mutations might be beneficial - if anything the heightened gene activity dynamic caused by inbreeding would be more likely to give rise to genetic errors such as chromosomal duplication - said chromosomes being redundant for a while until further mutations occur.

Recombination of genes causing two homozygote recessive alleles on the same locus to pair and become expressed is not the same as mutation. Recessive alleles are suppressed by corresponding dominant alleles for a gene, thus allowing a creature to become a genetic carrier for a trait without it having that trait it self. Mutation is a random process that can be promoted by a number of factors, but inbreeding is not one of them according to me, and Wikipedia seems to agree.

From the same page:


So inbreeding isn't *always* bad.



I understand that, but it doesn't necessarily counter the point I was trying to make.

I'm trying to argue that inbreeding - with all the recessive alleles and gene duplicates flying around - would give rise to more replication errors where genes become deleted or reorganised or cloned as the cells of a sexually mature adult enter the meiosis phase - this effect being magnified by closely-related creatures interbreeding.

I'm just trying to establish a scenario where extra chromosomes *might* be formed, because new chromosomes denote new species, and new species are formed in isolation - where a given population may be small in number, suggesting inbreeding *may* be a factor in the formation of new chromosomes.

That's the train of thought I'm trying to convey.

That's interesting, but I still think the downsides outweigh the benefits in a natural evolutional process. It has some application in controlled breeding apparently.



It may increase the chance of replication errors, but not with such a significant amount that it can be regarded as the sole explanation for evolutionary divergence. Inbreeding generally leads to a decrease in ecological fitness which would hinder the reproduction of the new species, and thus evening out and probably overtaking the advantage of increased replication errors.

What you're trying to do, finding an explanation in gene replication mechanisms to explain the forming or deletion of new chromosomes isn't necessary. Like any mutation, there are plenty of factors that can induce it and through probability and natural selection the process is explained. Evolutionary divergence may to some extent be influenced by inbreeding, but it certainly isn't the sole explaining factor.

And then I read through your post again and realise that might be what you're saying, whoops. Our argument may boil down to what extent inbreeding is a factor then. Well, according to me it isn't a main one, but I won't lose any sleep over it if you believe otherwise.

Necro time. I'm taking Biology this summer and it's turning out to be much more interesting than I thought it would be. Cellular respiration and photosynthesis are totally symmetrical and it's blowing my mind.

Are you referring to the exchange of CO2 through stomata in plants with cellular respiration? Or the oxidation in mitochondria? I could look it up on wikipedia of course, but it's fun trying to figure out the English terms.

Also, is that extra summer classes you're taking, or are those part of the normal curricula?

Edit: woops, that sentence sucked.

Both. For cellular respiration, oxygen and glucose become carbon dioxide, water, and energy; in photosynthesis carbon dioxide, water, and energy become oxygen and glucose. It's like the process just gets reversed between plants and animals, though I know both processes are complicated and involve multiple other chemicals.

Anyway, this is just a filler class I'm taking with others to get scholarship cheddar.

By the way, I'm having fun drawing diagrams of all these processes in my notebook, if I had a scanner I'd upload them.

Oh in that way. It becomes even more interesting when you add carnivores and detrivores, then you get the synergy in Nitrogen intake (through proteins and such).

Where are you currently in the educational system Exeres? And what are you going to study next year?

College. Like I said, this was pretty much just an elective for me. I'm actually a history major, I only need one Western Civilization class to graduate but I can't take it until next semester. I'm going to try to get a few more classes from the same teacher, the guy is great.

Gravity is caused by space flowing into objects with mass.
There is space flowing into you and the earth and black holes. Like water in a current toward a waterfall.
The flow of space is what causes certain things to move. Like galaxies.
This blew my mind when we covered it in astronomy.
Also there are Gamma Rays getting to earth that were created at the beginning of the universe.
Imagine if you were that gamma ray. You finally get free from the primordial soup and start traveling. 14 billion years later you finally reach your destination. The destination and the entirity of the scenery along the trip didn't even exist when you left. Like boarding a plane from LA to New York. Except New York doesn't exist when the plane takes off neither does the land between the two. They only start to shortly before you get there.

IDK it was freaking me out earlier.

Snarf, you have seen the Universe. You want something even freakier? Those gamma rays have been traveling at the speed of light since the Big Bang, and since time is relative to motion, from the perspective of the gamma ray no time has passed at all. Just an instant between Bang and destination. 14 billion years, in the blink of an eye.

I KNOW MAN!
ITS SO FREAKING CRAZY

ARALKRJKLSDJGLFSDJFFFF

How can space move? It is the definition of nothing.
But I do understand what you meant, I prefer the fabric analogy though.

What is incredible is the theories on why the big bang happened. 2 colliding dimensions, anyone?

FUCK YEAR.

Space moves by moving toward objects with mass. I don't remember all the details.


On a related note.
I visited LIGO, it is a facility in my hometown. One of the very few in the world.
It is trying to detect gravitational waves. These come from massive things like neutron stars with binary companions and blackholes with binary companions and interacting neutron stars. Detecting them is very difficult and the instruments they use are extremely sensitive. They can pick up storms in Alaska from here in Washington and the sound of waves on the beach hundreds of miles away. Their device is in a L shape and is several km long in both directions. They detect a change in the time it takes light to come back. They send out a light beam using a laser. Gravitational waves will cause one arm to get longer and one to get shorter. But only by a very very very small margin (like the width of a quark or proton, I can't remember). The light beam is shot off into each of the two arms and then is reflected back. If they come back correctly they should arrive at the same time and there should be destructive interference and there will be nothing or very close to nothing on the viewing screen. If there is something that means the arms changed size and the light came back at different times proving gravitational waves existence. However the mirrors they reflect with are so sensitive that even trucks on the highway can disturb it enough to offset the results. That is why they compare with several other LIGOs around the world to determine if they had similar results. Unfortunetly it was shut down because they are upgrading and making even larger arms that are like double the length. Allowing them to detect even smaller length changes. It takes years though and probably won't be ready until 2015.

Knowing gravitational waves existence will allow them to determine their speed through space and help them to detect sources of the waves and many other amazing things.